Episode 8: Stockholm Syndrome and Conspiracy Theories - Transcript

CA: [00:00:00] hi teamsters I'm Carey Ann  

AE: [00:00:16] and I'm Alison. And this is podcast without an audience 

CA: [00:00:19] where two friends pick two topics and find intersectionality 

AE: [00:00:22] or not. I, before we were recording, we were like, Oh, we need to press record. Because we were talking about like, being a witty when you're texting somebody and like, you have like a really good, like back and forth, you're like ready to respond.

You're about to say something with the word fuck in it. And then you accidentally ended up saying "duck" and it just ruins your whole joke or when you're texting your editor and his cute girlfriend, and you say you better be proposing and you say purposes, and 

CA: [00:00:56] then he said, uh, you cute fucking angels, but actually said angles.

So hashtag purposing angles.  

AE: [00:01:05] my delivery. The delivery was off a little bit. My dad says that all the time, like. When we were kids, we would be like throwing a tantrum. He'd be like your delivery's off a little bit. 

CA: [00:01:17] I can relate to that. I feel like I don't come up with a good comeback until about a minute and a half after I've sent the text message.

And then I think of an entire list of things I could have said. 

AE: [00:01:27] Yeah, absolutely. No, I think I perform well in text it's for a very specific audience. It's for, have you known me for 10 years? Do you understand my inside jokes? Do have you seen every, every movie that's ever existed, especially, 

CA: [00:01:47] uh, fried green tomatoes?

Exactly. 

AE: [00:01:50] But 

CA: [00:01:50] and the L word a lot. 

AE: [00:01:53] So much. Yeah. 

CA: [00:01:55] So we've got our whole little chart going in Greensboro. 

AE: [00:01:58] Oh, like the chart, the chart. No. You know, people are really into making that.

CA: [00:02:07] I know I have been to so many queer parties where they're like, Hey, let's make a chart. And I have dated several people who showed up on the chart in multiple places, which, uh, I don't know what that says about me 

AE: [00:02:20] progressed.

So for those who have not seen the L word, first of all, go watch it. Second of all, watch it with the understanding that it is problematic in certain areas. It came 

CA: [00:02:31] out so long ago. Um, and we understand the queer community so much better now, 

AE: [00:02:37] hopefully, 

but it's all we have. 

CA: [00:02:40] It was our introduction to queer culture, but 

AE: [00:02:44] yeah, basically Alice Piezecki,  who was Alice Peterson in the first three episodes

CA: [00:02:50] and then becomes Alice Piezecki.

AE: [00:02:52] So she creates a chart where you, you, you have your name and then it spirals off with all of your sexual partners and then all of their sexual partners. And it's like a. You know, five degrees of separation or three degrees or however many fucking degrees yep. Thing. And, um, yeah, 

CA: [00:03:12] we don't want to feel very Shane in that way.

No. So if you've been getting that reference, then you have definitely seen the L word, if not go watch it and then let us know if you're feeling very Shane today. Exactly. 

AE: [00:03:27] Unrelated to all of that. We are here to talk about some psychology and history topics. Is that what we're doing? That's our whole entire job.

Let's talk about some psychology. I'm excited. What do you, um, what do you have for us this week? Wow. 

CA: [00:03:43] Uh, you know, I love me a good musical. Um, I think we've talked about in every single episode at this point, mostly 

AE: [00:03:50] musicals. I love musicals. I also think hell is a musical. 

CA: [00:03:56] Oh, that was a phenomenal musical.

This specific musical. I have rewritten some of the lyrics. To a particular song. Oh my God. Are you gonna sing it? No, God, no. It's Tale as old as time. True as it is creepy. Let's talk about Stockholm syndrome. 

AE: [00:04:13] Yay. Are you talking about Beauty and the Beast. Belle, belle and the Buffalo.

That's what I call it. Yeah. That real, uh, diversion with Hermione in it was fucking, literally look, the guy looks like a Buffalo.

CA: [00:04:28] It does. And we will probably be referring to this as bell and the Buffalo for the rest of the episode. Um, but I had to let you have your moment. Cause I wrote bell in the Buffalo.

At least three times and had to take it out. Cause I was like, Allie wants her glory.

AE: [00:04:43] I, I say it all the time you deserve, I don't know how I make it work in every conversation. 

CA: [00:04:50] Okay. So obviously bell and the Buffalo is a highly simplified way of thinking about Stockholm syndrome, but Stockholm syndrome is a type of trauma bond, which happens most frequently when hostages bond with their captors.

Oh. 

AE: [00:05:06] So it's so crazy.

CA: [00:05:08] It's so weird. It's so weird. We're going to talk about 

AE: [00:05:12] that a little bit because the authority.... I get it. Like, okay, I'm going to stop. Right. Okay. 

CA: [00:05:17] Yup. Yup. We're going to rationalize so much of it. Um, and talk about the origins and which is a really fascinating story that I didn't know prior to this.

Okay. I'm just going to go ahead and lay it all out there. It was not inspired by beauty and the beast. Okay. 

AE: [00:05:31] So it's very before, very much before it's not though. No, but I'm sure it's been happening for ages. 

CA: [00:05:40] Yeah. Yeah. The earliest documented, um, example I could find with like 1930s. Yeah. 

AE: [00:05:47] Or still like, think about arranged marriage.

Think about child, marriage, everybody. 

CA: [00:05:51] Yeah. The phenomenon has been around forever, but identifying it as Stockholm syndrome and giving it a title under the larger umbrella of trauma bonding is very specific. Yep. 

AE: [00:06:03] It'll be a bit okay. I'm on board. 

CA: [00:06:05] Um, so sometimes we think about Stockholm syndrome in terms of abuse, but most commonly it is captives and captors.

It can however, be related to like sex trafficking, child abuse, domestic violence, all of the things that we hate. And, and don't actually want to talk about in this episode, we're specifically going to be talking about captives and captors. Okay. So it's believed that the bond is created when a captor threatens their captives life and then chooses not to kill the captive.

So it's, this moment of my life is in danger, something he D the, I said he, whoops, um, the, uh, captor does something kind, and then they both see each other's humanity and then the captive remains alive. So there has to be a threat of real danger that interspersed with small kindnesses. Um, there's something sweet and almost kind, Oh no, no, no.

The belief is that there is no escape  so we now under 

AE: [00:07:11] your sprinkling and throughout this thing, I wish I was 

CA: [00:07:16] that clever pieces of it. Yes. Okay. I, another piece of beauty and the beast here is giving someone a library would certainly count as a small kindness, and I will be accepting libraries from future suitors because that just sounds like a healthy opportunity for books.

Oh, no. Um, also we're not going to be assessing or diagnosing the beast. Um, he definitely had some unhealthy attachment stuff. Maybe some PTSD from being turned into a beast after being an asshole to a little old lady, the end that's, uh, that's essentially where our beauty and the beast references stop bell on the Buffalo bell and Buffalo, but survival is at the heart of Stockholm syndrome.

So whether you've been held captive for a few days, I think the original case that inspired the term was only six days or years, like eight to 10 years, or even more it's about, um, captivity and abuse. So being forced into dependence and horrific conditions. So what seems somewhat natural is that your brain would then start to interpret like small kindnesses as good treatment.

Right. And what you're doing is you're making a link between your captors, happiness and your own. And it's a way of handling the trauma of a truly terrifying situation and ultimately is a coping mechanism. Yeah. So if you've been held captive for, you know, a year and a lot of it's horrible, but there are a few moments where you actually see someone's kindness showing through, of course your brain is holding onto those moments and saying, this person isn't going to kill me.

And they can't be all bad. 

AE: [00:08:54] It, to me, it feels like not a savior complex, but somebody like it's a life and death thing at that, at that time. And you're associating good feelings with your captor, right. Because you know that they have the ability to get you out of it. 

CA: [00:09:12] Yeah. There might be something there that wasn't there before 

AE: [00:09:15] shit.

CA: [00:09:18] Okay. 

AE: [00:09:19] So 

CA: [00:09:21] a victim will begin to sympathize with their captor. There's and even begin to develop some positive feelings towards them. Sometimes they might go so far as to be able to perceive their captors, humanity, and believe that they have the same goals or values. Another component of Stockholm syndrome is that the captives developing negative feelings or the captives might develop negative feelings towards police authority, figures, or anyone trying to help them escape.

Mm, 

AE: [00:09:48] okay. Yeah. I'm the only one that can help you. 

CA: [00:09:51] Right. Okay. So let's take a moment to recognize where the term Stockholm syndrome comes from. Stockholm. That's your, uh, Swedish accent? Oh, obviously you're not wrong. So in 1973, a man robbed a bank in Stockholm, Sweden. Oh. Um, he ended up holding four people hostage for about six days, six days in a base in a, in a vault.

I think about how gross that gets. 

AE: [00:10:21] Yeah. There's only so many corners, 

CA: [00:10:24] not a castle. There was no library. Lots of money though. Right? Our guy's name is Yon. Eric Olson, yacht darling. It's interesting. So he initially went in and botched a bank robbery and ended up taking four people captive. Um, and then there were some hostage negotiators that were like, what do you want an exchange for?

You know, freeing some of these hostages. And he was like, yo, I want my buddy from prison to be released and to be able to come here. And the police did that. So it ended up being two hostage. Or two captors and four hostages? 

AE: [00:11:03] No. So he's like, listen, I got a good deal for your friend. Let me get you some additional time.

What year was this? I'm sorry, 

CA: [00:11:10] 1973. Oh no. Okay. So once the hostages were released after those six days, they all refuse to testify against their captors and went so far as to raise money for their defense. Whoa, one person stated that she quote, trusted her captors, but feared that she would die and police assault on the building in quote, what's so interesting about this is that we don't really know what happened over the course of those six days.

Right? What we do know is that reducing these bank robbers to just being bad guys takes away this super complex lens that we need in order to understand why they would Rob a bank. Like what drives people to Rob a bank? 

AE: [00:11:49] Um, I'm going to say money 

CA: [00:11:52] potentially. Yes. Assuming that they didn't wake up one morning and just choose violence, we can wildly speculate about their experience up to that point in their lives.

Right? Yon Olson, Yon, Eric Olson was a convict and he was on parole in a later interview. He said, quote, the hostages did everything I told them to. If they hadn't. I might not be here now. Why didn't any of them attack me? They made it hard to kill. They made us go on living together day after day, like goats and that filth there was nothing to do, but get to know each other and wow.

Oh 

AE: [00:12:27] yeah. Hate, hate it. 

CA: [00:12:29] I think it's fascinating. And maybe it's just because I like the complexity of the human experience. 

AE: [00:12:36] Oh yeah. Well, he would have had to have been very persuasive and very like. Listen, we're in this together.

CA: [00:12:44] Well, and there's also like, there's a little bit of blame here. Like if they hadn't done this, then this, but there's also does like narcissism doesn't really understand.

He's why didn't any of them attack me. Right. It was hard to kill them. They made us go on living, which is just a fascinating way to look at this versus someone who's truly narcissistic, who was like, well, they wouldn't attack me because I'm so great. You know, instead he was like, they're the reason that we all survived.

So I think he developed a bond with them that was similar to the bond that they developed with him. 

AE: [00:13:19] Right. I mean, if you're shitting in front of each other, you're bonded. 

CA: [00:13:23] Yeah. So what we know about Olson is that he was a repeat offender who had committed several armed robberies and quote, acts of violence beginning when he was 16 

AE: [00:13:33] and Sweden is such a crime free country.

It's fast. It's crazy. It is. 

CA: [00:13:38] So Olsen was sentenced to 10 years in prison. After this bank robbery, after he got out, he went on to commit several other crimes. Ultimately he went to turn himself in and they were like, actually, we don't really care anymore. So he moved to Thailand. Got married. And now is back in Sweden, living with his wife.

Well, apparently doing 

AE: [00:13:59] well back that shit up. Yeah. So he committed all these crimes after the bank 

CA: [00:14:06] robbery and being in jail in prison for 10 years 

AE: [00:14:09] and then went back to like turn himself in and they turned him away. Yeah. 

CA: [00:14:15] Apparently whatever he did after that was not as big of a deal. I don't know.

I did minimal research. That's good. Same. Yeah. It's really fascinating. It gets more interesting. Oh, Only a little bit, but still more interesting. Okay. I wonder 

AE: [00:14:30] if their prison system is for profit like ours, because if not, it is a, not as far as that would make sense that they would turn them off. 

CA: [00:14:37] Yeah.

Yeah. Also I used to work with a young lady who, um, was from Norway and she was explaining their prison system to me. Um, her dad was a attorney, I believe. And do you remember the mass murder that happened in Norway? A long time ago, like 15 years ago, 10 years ago, something in Norway, which is next door neighbors to Sweden.

They don't have the death penalty or life in prison. Like the highest sentence you could get was like 25 years. So whenever this crazy crime happened, they had to not just try the crime, but look at what do we do for someone who killed all these people. Right. Because they'd never experienced anything like that, which is just so different than our system.

We need to talk about mass incarceration at some point. Yeah, not now. So the criminologist on the case, his name is Neils Patrick Harris. They are off. Sure. And he coined the term normal I'm strong syndrome. Uh, which is actually the name of the square in Sweden. So yeah. Yeah. Within Stockholm, this is the actual place.

Okay. It later became Stockholm syndrome because no one else could pronounce the other word, 

AE: [00:15:53] the word that you can. 

CA: [00:15:54] And also, um, Stockholm is just more notable for people outside of Sweden. Sure. Okay. So here's where it gets really interesting. Um, Allston wrote an autobiography that was published in Sweden in 2009.

And I am looking for a copy. Oh. Because I bet it has all the information that I would love to have for this episode. So one day I'd be looking for a book report Molson. There's also a Swedish Netflix television series about this event coming out this year. 

AE: [00:16:25] Perfect time cited. 

CA: [00:16:27] Okay. Okay, cool. Okay. So what we can assume is that it wasn't random and.

Olson had probably experienced trauma prior to robbing a bank. Sure. So why do people need money? Of course, the system in Sweden is very different than it is here, but once you start to see him as a complex individual who had experienced trauma, who maybe wasn't having all of his needs met, who maybe had some, uh, undiagnosed mental health stuff going on, it's easy to see what may have allowed his captives to see his humanity.

Okay. At least that's my, my theory. So let's talk about recognizing someone's humanity. Uh, I'm going to preface this a little bit with in the work that I do. I feel like I see. The best and the worst in people. A lot of time, a lot of the time, especially I work with a lot of children. Who've been abused and a lot of families who have experienced multi-generational trauma, but there's something about seeing someone's humanity and recognizing all the things that lead them up to the point where you enter their lives.

Sure. So the idea that there are good guys and bad guys is a really oversimplified way of thinking about humanity because humans are fucking complicated. So our buffaloes, um, 

AE: [00:17:40] got on a Buffalo. What's this in the weeds. It's a baby. Fuck. No, you've never seen guy and a Buffalo. Oh my God. That's what we're doing right 

CA: [00:17:51] after this.

I cannot wait. Okay. So the more I learned about brains and trauma, the more complicated humans become also abuse, child abuse, sex trafficking, holding people captive is never acceptable. We just have to examine the systems that allowed things to happen. So I was in a class when I was getting my masters.

Um, and we were talking about interpersonal violence, domestic violence, and providing support to the survivors of domestic violence. Yeah. And one person in my class brought up, um, what about therapy for abusers or perpetrators or, you know, people who are inflicting harm on others. And it was never a thing I thought about, like my brain had always been so wired towards protecting survivors and helping survivors heal and punishing, you know, people who hurt other people.

Right. But ultimately that doesn't solve the problem. And also we know that our prison system is not built around helping people heal. It's built around. Corporal punishment. So I think that there's a lot to unpack there, but ultimately I just really wanted to emphasize that Stockholm syndrome is yes, a coping skill.

It's also in some ways a recognition of humanity. Um, even if it is a highly problematic coping skill,

AE: [00:19:18] I'm thinking about all the situations in which you could find yourself identifying with that particular diagnosis. Yeah. And like captors, I think is the most like media maybe focused option. But I do think that people find themselves in situations where they're being dominated over by somebody else.

And there possibly could have been feelings in the beginning, but like, you know, domestic violence as you talked about before. Right. I really think it comes down to, like you said, trying to see the good in people or 

CA: [00:19:51] holding onto that. Good for the purpose of survival. Sure. 

AE: [00:19:55] Yes. Yeah. Yeah. And I think that, I don't know if you have any statistics on gender and this experience, but I think that probably goes back to like gender norms and, and women feeling pressured for, for love and, and, and acceptance.

And, and men generally having already been given that from a very young age too, I'd be interested to kind of see how that relates. 

CA: [00:20:22] That's a really interesting point. I haven't done that research. It's something that would be interested in digging into more, but I just don't know. Yeah. 

AE: [00:20:32] Yeah. I just don't know how it's crazy.

CA: [00:20:36] Crazy. I do have two other high profile cases. I'm going to share with you briefly of Stockholm syndrome. The first one is Patty Hearst, who was kidnapped in 1974. So is that the year after same year as the Stockholm bank robbery by the Symbionese liberation army during her captivity, she eventually like renounced her family.

She took on a new name, joined the SLA and robbing banks. And did all this horrendous stuff and then went, she was charged for it. And she was the first person to use Stockholm syndrome as a defense in her trial. It didn't work. She was sentenced to 35 years in prison. And well, I mean, there's no need to belabor that too much.

I just think it's interesting. Yeah. Um, another one is Natasha , who was kidnapped in 1998. Uh, at the age of 10 years old, she was held captive for more than eight years shed. During that time she was kept underground in a dark insulated room by her father. No, um, a random kidnapper. Okay. Her kidnapper abused her threatened to kill her and then would occasionally show her some kindness.

Once she escaped her captor died by suicide. Um, and she reportedly wept inconsolably and of course there's not a ton of research on that and I didn't read a whole lot about it, but it was notable given her long term. 

AE: [00:22:04] Yeah. She's so young. Those are like some really peak years for development and attachment attachment 1000%.

CA: [00:22:13] Yeah. So there's also some interesting thoughts about trauma bonding, attachment and Stockholm syndrome. And again, like it's just so much to unpack there. Like it's so much longer than a, an hour long podcast 

AE: [00:22:27] episode. I mean, from, from my perspective, I think it would be easier for survival mode to feel like you relate to a character as opposed to feeling fear and imminent danger.

100% of the time. I think that's probably maybe the motivation from where it comes from is, is the easiest way for you to get through your day. 

CA: [00:22:52] Yeah. There's also this idea that if someone is trying to kill you, if you share something about your life, it humanizes you to them. Sure. And it makes it harder for them to kill you.

AE: [00:23:03] That's why, that's why people who have missing family members say the name constantly in their press releases because they're hoping that the captor is, is. Watching 

CA: [00:23:13] and it will humanize I mean, it's, it's hard to hate people. Once you have a connection with them. If you share anything in common with them, even if it's something as small as like the same place in your birth order, are you the oldest of your siblings?

Did you grow up in a country, small town, or did you grow up, you know, taking ballet classes, these are things that humanize you and when you share them with someone who's hurting you, I mean, it's so vulnerable and there's. I don't want to victim shame at all here. Like there's nothing that you can do in this space.

AE: [00:23:52] Like, nothing that you do is wrong. Right. Everything is how you, yes. 

CA: [00:23:57] Yeah, yeah. But I think that the same is true too. When you start to see small kindnesses from a captor and you start to understand them on a deeper level or on any level, and they're showing you even the smallest pieces of kindness, then you start to connect with them and it's a survival skill.

AE: [00:24:16] Hang onto those moments. 

CA: [00:24:18] Yeah. 

AE: [00:24:19] Yeah, cause you've got to, you have, yeah, you have no other option. 

CA: [00:24:22] It's really important to note that Stockholm syndrome is not recognized in the DSM five. So it is not an actual diagnosis. Um, it has been argued in court before, obviously, um, in the 1970s, I believe, but it is not recognized as a mental health issue.

I mean, other forms of trauma that Stockholm syndrome might fall under are already recognized. Okay. So I don't know that, you know, necessarily splitting the hairs to come up with a very specific diagnosis of Stockholm syndrome would be beneficial in any way, because you're also looking at maybe PTSD or.

Um, attachment issues. Like those are all things under Stockholm syndrome that are already in the DSM. Does that make sense? Yes. So let's talk about recovery. Oh please. Yeah. Uh, we need some care after talking about the complexities of humanity. I said earlier Stockholm syndrome at its root as a coping mechanism.

So what do you need? You need therapy and counseling, and it's critical that it needs to be centered around developing healthy coping mechanisms. So a thing that I say a lot at work is a coping skill works for the person who's using it. If the coping skill didn't work, the person wouldn't use it. Sure. So you have to take a more suitable coping skill and replace it with a coping skill.

That's not working. Additionally, there has to be treatment for PTSD and maybe support around addressing anxiety, depression, attachment stuff, identity development, even all those little pieces that come together to form the intricacies of Stockholm syndrome. Whatever you do, please don't feel like you have to kiss the Buffalo.

No magic spells. Probably won't lift. Now, if you do find yourself in a castle with talking furniture, who am I to judge who you kiss? 

AE: [00:26:17] Oh, sure. Oh, you got other shit to worry about. 

CA: [00:26:19] Yeah. Also the beast was never, he never threatened eminent harm to Belle. He just kept her prisoner and then eventually let her go.

And she, 

AE: [00:26:26] he was very mean to her and he yelled at her and he is a Buffalo. So that's really scary when you're not a Buffalo. Thank you very much. That's fair. 

CA: [00:26:36] Okay. I, she, 

AE: [00:26:38] he threatened to kill her father. 

CA: [00:26:41] He did threaten to kill her father. Well, he threatened to hold her or until he died. Right. Very different than killing him actively.

AE: [00:26:48] So it's more of like a torture 

CA: [00:26:50] situation or just imprisonment situation. Hmm. Hard to say how much torture was going to actually happen. Well, I mean, he gave Belle a really nice bedroom. 

AE: [00:27:00] Oh my God. You are not defending the Buffalo. I'm sorry. I really love the, and the bees. Yeah. When you, I mean, any of the Disney movies are problematic in their own.

CA: [00:27:13] Right? Sure. And especially when you go back to like, there.

AE: [00:27:16] Original stories. Let's not cover Walt Disney at a later time. Oh yeah. 

CA: [00:27:21] But I just wanted to bring us back to bell and the Buffalo and that's a safe place to yeah.

AE: [00:27:27] And the narrative. Yeah, I think so too crazy. I mean, originally like thinking about this topic, I thought about it way different than when I had to sit down and like, Make eye contact with you and discuss it because it's co it's an out of body experience.

And you often don't put yourself in the situation that the person who's being imprisoned is feeling. Yeah. And ultimately understanding that at that point it's survival and your brain shuts down and does whatever it needs to do to survive. 

CA: [00:28:00] So, right. Absolutely. And I think that we all, not all, a lot of people have developed unhealthy coping mechanisms and coping strategies for dealing with the complex nature of any relationship, especially unhealthy and toxic relationships.

Right. And I don't want to compare a generally unhealthy or toxic relationship to something like Stockholm syndrome and trauma bonding, but there are similar things that happen in the brain. Right.

AE: [00:28:29] The brain is a very crazy yeah. Looking at the body. 

CA: [00:28:34] Yeah. Alison. What do you have for us today? 

AE: [00:28:37] Thank you so much for asking CA . I thought you'd never ask. 

CA: [00:28:41] We are halfway through the podcast, so it would be an appropriate inappropriate time. 

AE: [00:28:45] Yeah. All right. My friend. So today is an exciting day. Our episode topic this week was chosen by our fantastic patron. Lauren Mays. Okay. So I'm going to be talking about conspiracy theories.

CA: [00:29:03] I love it. Good suggestion, Lauren. It's like, you know, us, 

AE: [00:29:09] it's like she knows us, and I'm also going to come back to this topic because I realized how big it is. And I think I'm going to revisit it at a, at a later time, because I felt like I wasn't fully able to die dive in. 

CA: [00:29:27] Well, I think Netflix has a whole show, like series called conspiracy theories.

So good. Is it yeah, maybe 

AE: [00:29:35] talking about maybe that stuff will overlap. I don't know that I want to watch it cause I don't want to be. Uh, 

CA: [00:29:40] it's swayed some of it or like each episode is a different conspiracy theory. Oh, okay. So some of it, you probably don't have much of an interest in and watch those episodes because they're fascinating for sure.

Right. 

AE: [00:29:51] So I'm going to talking about the history and kind of what is a conspiracy theory, and then I'll do some short dives into some, are you breaking it down for the break in the shutdown? Buckle up? My body's ready. I, conspiracy theory is defined by the Miriam Webster dictionary as a theory that explains an event or set of circumstances as the result of a secret plot by usually powerful conspirators, we just watched bridge written.

So I love, I also saw other sources that claim that conspiracy theories are associated or kind of put on by businesses or organizations often political or otherwise. Yeah, however, I think it kind of spans larger than that. So I definitely agree with the first definition. Wikipedia says that quote, a conspiracy theory is not simply a conspiracy.

Instead it refers to a hypothesized conspiracy with specific characteristics, such as an opinion to the mainstream consensus among those people, such as scientists. Or historians who are qualified to evaluate its accuracy. So conspiracy theories tend to be a little paranoid, very opinionated. Yep. And the purpose is to discredit an opinion that is widely accepted, debunk it and reveal the ultimate 

CA: [00:31:18] truth.

I mean, I literally wrote that definition. Yeah. I wrote 

AE: [00:31:23] that check. This goes back to confirmation bias, which is according to dictionary.com the tendency to interpret new evidence as confirmation for one's existing beliefs or theories. 

CA: [00:31:39] This sounds a lot like psychology. So I'm going to need you 

AE: [00:31:43] being over the psychology portion of this podcast.

As of 

CA: [00:31:46] right now, So we're no longer a psychology and history podcast. We're a 

AE: [00:31:50] psychology and psychology, right? 

CA: [00:31:53] It's an intersectionality really first. 

AE: [00:31:56] Exactly. Um, but I think that's really, I think everybody does this shit all the time. They were literally building off our own beliefs in order to like understand situations and make them fit into the boxes that we've already established in our own brains.

Yeah. Crazy conspiracy theories, resist falsification and are reinforced by circular reasoning, both evidence against the conspiracy and an absence of evidence for it are reinterpreted as evidence of its truth. Got it. So that's another way to say confirmation bias. It's just a circle. What you think goes back to like what's existing because that's how you rationalize it in your mind.

And then it goes around and then it's not 

CA: [00:32:40] existing, which goes to reinforce. Oh yeah. Theory that you've created. Everything 

AE: [00:32:46] is reinforcing what you already believe. Right? 

CA: [00:32:49] Hints. You're confirming within yourself, your bias 

AE: [00:32:53] and the confirmation. So conspiracy becomes kind of a matter of faith instead of something that can be proved or disproved research suggests that conspiracist ideation or the belief in conspiracy theories may be psychologically harmful or pathological.

This can correlate with psychological projection and paranoia. Psychologist attribute to finding conspiracy where there is none to a mental phenomenon called illusory pattern perception. 

CA: [00:33:27] So my dad and I were just having a conversation a few weeks ago about what makes some people more susceptible to buying into conspiracy theories than other people, because I love a good conspiracy theory.

AE: [00:33:40] I mean, the T. Right. Or podcast was originally going to be called two for tea, 

CA: [00:33:45] which is why you're Teamsters, because you all like the tea 

AE: [00:33:49] you like the tea

CA: [00:33:49] two, um, that's a little inside scoop on how we got to where we are today. But what I think is interesting is that you and I can like conspiracy theories all day long and look at them and never fully buy into them.

However, I know plenty of people who when presented with. Like the smallest shred of evidence or lack of evidence immediately are like, Oh, the earth is flat run with that 

AE: [00:34:14] shit. Right. And we will cross that bridge. 

CA: [00:34:17] I cannot wait. But yeah, I just think it's interesting to explore, like why some people might be more prone to buying into the conspiracy theories than other people.

And 

AE: [00:34:27] it, I think it's just human nature because nobody wants to be wrong. 

CA: [00:34:31] Well, I think it, I think it is more deeply rooted than that. Oh. And it goes back to your earliest relationships with people and whether you had healthy, secure, like trusting relationships. With people in youth. 

AE: [00:34:46] So it's whether to trust information that's displayed in front of you or not.

CA: [00:34:50] Okay. That's my theory. There's literally no reason to prove that I just made that shit up a few weeks ago and have been working on it ever 

AE: [00:34:58] since your own conspiracy theory. Yes. So historically we've seen conspiracy theories in the form of witch hunts, racism, prejudice, violence. And even genocide and terrorism and other unpleasant, 

CA: [00:35:14] the conspiracy theory that blows my mind the most are the people who don't believe the Holocaust.

AE: [00:35:17] Israel. Yeah. That shit is fucking wild. 

CA: [00:35:21] I mean, I, the flat earth thing blows my mind, but not believing in the Holocaust. Right. Excuse me. What the fuck outta here? 

AE: [00:35:29] Yeah. So we love to think that conspiracy theories are like generally lighthearted. Obviously the Holocaust is a good example, but they're not harmless by any means.

No quote AIDS denialism by the government of South Africa, motivated by conspiracy theories because an estimated 330,000 deaths from AIDS queue and on and denialism about the 2029 States presidential election results led to the 2021 storming of the United States Capitol. While belief in conspiracy theories about genetically modified foods led to the government of Zambia to reject food aid during a famine at a time when 3 million people in the country were suffering from hunger.

Oh my God. Conspiracy theories are a significant obstacle to improvements in public health, encouraging opposition to vaccination and water fluoridation among others. And have been linked to outbreaks of vaccine prevention, diseases. Other effects of conspiracy theories include reducing trust in scientific evidence, radicalization and ideological reinforcement of extremist groups and negative consequences.

For the economy. 

CA: [00:36:41] What I think is so interesting is, I mean, now you can find anyone to reinforce any belief that you have. If you want to Google conspiracy theories and find someone who believes the same thing as you, it's not going to be hard. And they might even have like a doctor in front of their name.

AE: [00:36:58] Well, and who believes that they're actually like their core beliefs are a conspiracy theory, right? Everyone's in denial. 

CA: [00:37:04] Exactly. Another thing about this though, is that you can, I mean, technology has gotten to the point where it's almost difficult to believe anything that you see. 

AE: [00:37:13] Absolutely. Which is exactly what I was my next point.

So thank you for bringing that up. 

CA: [00:37:18] So welcome who I read your notes, 

AE: [00:37:21] who falls victim to conspiracy theories and why conspiracy theories. Used to be saved for people who may not be considered like quote contributing members of society. Think of Duane Barry in the X-Files series and by series. I mean that one episode that he was in between Mary, but outcasts who are possibly, you know, suffering from mental health disorders or like doing stairs, who sure, exactly.

People who are just generally shunned they're like that person is weird. That's who our brains. Used to identify as people who believed in conspiracy theories. Yeah. But now it's 2021 and people are getting their fucking information from Facebook. Right. Which is 

so 

CA: [00:38:05] sad. It's so sad because people aren't even like Facebook is getting a little better about identifying false information.

Wow. 

AE: [00:38:15] I can't, I can't. However, so late Donald Trump was our president there. 

CA: [00:38:23] So, so the game and they don't catch every, like it's impossible to catch everything. So you end up with people, misquoting people or giving the wrong, you know, putting the wrong name on a quote or whatever to try and yeah. Like convinced.

People have different things. Yeah. And suddenly you have, uh, Nelson Mandela said saying, peace, love dope.

AE: [00:38:46] Like, I mean, he might have in the privacy of his own home, but like you're repeating, like I, he did not correct, but the flow of misinformation causes fear unrest, and it's hard for people around the world to find, or have access to credible information.

Why 

CA: [00:39:03] Facebook should not be your primary source of information.

AE: [00:39:07] Do we even have to tell that to people? Yes, we do. 

CA: [00:39:10] We absolutely do. Um, which just blows my mind. NPR is free and accessible thing typically really 

AE: [00:39:20] reliable typically. Yes. I am such a believer. An NPR. Thank you for bringing that up. 

CA: [00:39:26] You are so welcome.

I listened to NPR way too 

AE: [00:39:28] much. So conspiracy theories, which is, this is why I have to do multiple episodes because there are so many layers, so many rabbit holes that we can go down 

CA: [00:39:38] and I want to explore every single one,

AE: [00:39:40] every single one. So like once a quarter. I'm probably going to come back to this topic because we're gonna, 

CA: [00:39:47] you know, there's such a strong overlap with psychology and history in terms of conspiracy theories.

We might have to do a joint episode sometime. 

AE: [00:39:55] Oh my God. That'd be so cool. It would be, we could be on the same page for once. We could talk beforehand, literally before we record where I don't say anything to each other ever, unless we're talking about the L word. Um, cause we don't want to give it away, 

CA: [00:40:13] but we don't text you 24 /7 

AE: [00:40:15] anyways.

Who are you? What's your name? All right. Who are you? Who are you have we met? So today what I want to focus on are some conspiracy theories and we're going to keep it a little more lighthearted today. Good. I'm going to save some more because the original research got me a little heated. Yeah, that's fair.

Um, the confirmation bias is real. 

CA: [00:40:39] Oh, absolutely. Are we also going to have a chance at the end to like share our favorite conspiracy theories? Sure. I think we should because I have one that I just really love. Yeah. All right. 

AE: [00:40:49] My first conspiracy theory is that Elvis is still alive. I love he lives in my cornfield.

Haven't you heard? 

CA: [00:41:00] Uh, I thought he lived in the Bermuda triangle and that is where all non deceased celebrities go. 

AE: [00:41:05] Oh, I don't know. Oh, that's a good conspiracy theory right there, which we do not discuss today. The earliest known alleged sighting of Mr. Presley was at the Memphis international airport where a man resembling Elvis Presley gave the name, quote John burrows, which was the name that Elvis Presley used to give.

When booking hotel rooms, a series of alleged sightings took place in Kalamazoo, Michigan, and the late 1980s. So these reports and sightings were kind of beefed up by the media at the time. So like the weekly world news was covering it in California. Many people believe to have seen Elvis Presley in California's Lego land amusement, Mark.

CA: [00:41:53] Hello? I we're still alive Elvis. That's where I'd be. So 

AE: [00:41:57] this was like shortly after the park opened in 1999, it was later revealed that the, there they hired an Elvis impersonator, people were like, so you're like, get the fuck. Like anybody who gets married in Vegas knows you get married by Elvis. For sure.

People don't just assume that's Elvis Presley. Right? 

CA: [00:42:16] I do. I assume Elvis has actually married hundreds of thousands of couples at this point. Yeah. He's like giving it a music. Yeah. 

AE: [00:42:25] His new passion is just the love of others. That checks out for me, 

CA: [00:42:29] that tracks. Yeah. He wrote a lot of great love songs.

AE: [00:42:33] This is my favorite jailhouse rock school house rock Elvis Presley was rumored to have appeared in a background scene background airport scene in the 1990 film home alone. Have you heard about this? Oh, okay. So it was alleged that a bearded man wearing a turtleneck and a sports jacket. Could be seen over the left shoulder of Catherine O'Hara over like the shoulder of her character.

She was arguing with the airline employee. 

CA: [00:43:04] I know exactly what you're talking about. Y'all all picture 

AE: [00:43:06] it. Yep. Paranormal researcher, Ben, Rafford responded to this by saying, quote, why fake your death? And then turn up as an extra on a popular movie, 

CA: [00:43:16] which is super valid question. 

AE: [00:43:20] How could the cast and crew have failed to notice the presence of one of the most famous figures in the world?

CA: [00:43:27] I mean, he was a brunette white man with dark eyes, right? Darker blue eyes. What color? I said you have a, it doesn't matter. 

AE: [00:43:36] I think, I think they were darker. I 

CA: [00:43:38] think so, too. Uh, how could anyone look like him? Right. 

AE: [00:43:42] He had the very specific hair swish that 

CA: [00:43:44] he had played later became really popular. 

AE: [00:43:48] This paranormal researcher was challenged to find the actual actor who played this guy.

Everybody was like, okay. So if it's not Elvis, who is it? And he's like, um, it's not my job to like, find this person. So, so the director of the movie whose name is fucking Chris Columbus, can we talk about that for a second? 

CA: [00:44:10] He Also directed the Harry potters, at least two of them, which two? Chris Columbus did one and two, one 

AE: [00:44:17] and two.

CA: [00:44:18] Okay. And Harry Potter was super fun and not quite as dark as it got at the end. I mean, I love it like David Gates. Great. But 

AE: [00:44:27] so Chris, uh, Chris Columbus, so he was like smart enough to like shorten his name. He was like, listen, I've gotten this since kindergarten. I'm not the OG. Right. Then God he'd be quartered and dead by now.

CA: [00:44:40] Yeah. I've read Chris. The O G Christopher Columbus, his diary. Oh, don't do that. Don't do that to yourself. So 

AE: [00:44:48] bad. It's important. Part of our history. True. Understand. He was not a nice guy. 

CA: [00:44:54] Yeah. Um, we need to rewrite every single textbook. 

AE: [00:44:57] Okay. Yeah. But this Chris Columbus, I have no opinions, obviously, if he's into HP, maybe he's not terrible, but JK Rowling's also into HP.

I hear. So she's also not, 

CA: [00:45:08] I don't know who that is. 

AE: [00:45:10] I  

CA: [00:45:14] separated her from Harry Potter. So. 

AE: [00:45:17] Chris Columbus responded with quote, if Elvis was on the set, I would have known. So after being challenged by Radford to locate the true identity of his extra Kenny Biddle investigated and found the man to be Gary Richard grom, who died of a heart attack in February, 2016, bit of located Gretz his son named Roman, which is a bad-ass name, um, who explained the, his father was indeed the x-ray and the airport scene of home alone.

CA: [00:45:45] And did indeed look like Elvis Presley? 

AE: [00:45:48] He had known the director, Chris Columbus, personally, because of this, he appeared in a number of Chris's movies as an extra, including home alone, not Harry Potter, no HP. So he was literally just some random 

CA: [00:46:04] guy. Cool. I have to say, I'm not convinced the Elvis is still alive.

Elvis is dead. Yeah. What your conspiracy theories not convincing me of anything? 

AE: [00:46:15] No, I am debunking these conspiracy theories. 

CA: [00:46:18] None of them are true then 

AE: [00:46:20] personally. Well, this next one, you be the judge. We are not going to be discussing the Avril Levine body swap. Have you heard of this? I haven't girl. Oh my God.

Okay. So the theory behind this is that Avril Levine was really struggling with her. The beginning of her career that she began using a body devil named Melissa. And at some point the conspiracy theory goes that at some point, the actual Avril Levine dies of why we don't know how we don't know why we don't know, but then the record label comes and says, okay, so average Vivian is doing super good in her career.

Let's go ahead and switch Melissa. And as a full time, double quote proof has included Avril Levine's red carpet appearances, and her photo shoots because Avril Levine, as we all know why I got to go and be so complicated, she prefers to wear like pants and like ties and, you know, fall for those skater boys.

Right. Except I said, see you later, boy. Um, kind of like the more like masculine right wardrobe, 

CA: [00:47:37] which is why all the baby queers fell for her 

AE: [00:47:40] 1000%. Yeah. Um, how could you not, however they're saying that Melissa preferred to wear dresses and skirts. So all of a sudden in like the early two thousands, we see a switch from who we thought we knew as Avril Levine to who she kind of became her wardrobe, started changing 

CA: [00:48:00] called character development.

People were here for in movies and in real life, 

AE: [00:48:04] in this one, I believe in, okay. I believe in 

CA: [00:48:10] bullshit. 

AE: [00:48:11] There was also some really significant facial features that changed pre 2003 to post 2003. So some might attribute this to Botox or like. Growing the fuck up or plastic surgery. Sure. All of the above would be access.

She's 

CA: [00:48:32] got the money for whatever the hell she wants to 

AE: [00:48:35] do. Yeah. Theories also believe that Melissa left clues in the songs, such as in the song slipped away, which she says, quote, the day, 

CA: [00:48:50] I can't see you over Dolly Parton. I've got a conspiracy theory for you. Dolly Parton became a cat and it's now living her best fucking life.

AE: [00:49:00] That means Dolly Parton is dead. Don't you wish that? No, 

CA: [00:49:03] it just means that she is now. She's an animagus. 

AE: [00:49:06] Okay. She's an anamorphic. Yep. 

CA: [00:49:08] And

AE: [00:49:12] so the song goes quote, the day that you slipped away was the day I found I won't be the same or which could mean literally anything. 

CA: [00:49:24] I don't know how many times I've written that in my 

AE: [00:49:26] diary, there was even a publicity shoot where, uh, Avril Levine had quote, Melissa, the name Melissa, or written on her hand.

Maybe she has a crush. Maybe she did. I mean, who writes their own name on their own hand? Nobody like if it's Melissa, then only the fact you have the name, Melissa rather 

CA: [00:49:48] would have Avril written on your hand, just in case you forgot what your name was. You're like she could have just been having an 

AE: [00:49:53] identity crisis.

I mean, yeah. She like. Rushed to famous knew. She said, see you later, boy, 

CA: [00:50:00] she's married to a woman named Melissa and they just happen to look a lot alike. 

AE: [00:50:06] I hate to break this to you, but I'm like 99% sure. She's married to the lead singer of Nickleback 

CA: [00:50:11] irrelevant. Um, she also have a twin sister named Melissa, 

all of 

AE: [00:50:17] which is possible.

We just don't know just out now, honey, we just don't net. So the next conspiracy theory is that there is life that exists outside of our planet and that is known to the government and that it is not may known to the common person 

CA: [00:50:37] I fully actually get behind this conspiracy theory for sure. Um, didn't they release something over 2020, like they released video or something.

I know that there was going to be people storming area 51 in September of 2019. Teen. Um, but I think in 2020, they also released some footage of aliens. 

AE: [00:51:02] So, so I know about the people who were going to storm area 51, and then I think they just all kind of like had like a Woodstock kind of Coachella experience.

Yeah. And just like hung out and like, didn't actually see don't actually storm it because I think that they know that if they did, they would all be probably dead. 

CA: [00:51:21] Probably not. They're mostly white people. I'm sorry. That was a little too. 

AE: [00:51:25] That's a little too. But there have been reports of like dead cattle.

That's like the biggest thing, like internationally, like livestock tends to die in these like really crazy ways. Um, sometimes these livestock are missing body parts. Some are found dead, like really far away from their origins or their owners. Some are missing blood completely and have been drained of blood completely.

We also talk about, uh, crop circles. Yeah. Yeah. All of those could, um, be direct evidence of extraterrestrials. Sure. 

CA: [00:52:03] Um, at least they're not blaming it on the witches 

AE: [00:52:05] anymore. Oh, thank God. We can live freely out of the broom closet.

That's funny. Thank you. But these, the, you know, the dead cattle situation has been going on for 70 years. 

CA: [00:52:22] Only 70. Yeah. 

AE: [00:52:24] Huh. Okay. Hmm. And this is most of the time interpreted to aliens and seeker governmental slash military. Experiments this information was written about in a book called quote alien harvest published in 1989 by Linda.

How so? Add that shit to your book club list. We'll do many conspiracy theories have drawn inspiration from the writings of Zachariah. Sitch. When, who declared that the Ana new guy from the Sumerian mythology, who were actually a race of extraterrestrial beings who came to earth from 500,000 years ago, you know what I'm saying?

Yep. In order to mine gold. Oh, regional, uh, 49ers. Right? Exactly. They, they knew. Yeah. Like gold is not that gold exists. Nowhere else. So like, why would they, why would they need it? Intergalactically right. So in 1994, a book was written called humanities, extraterrestrial origins. E T influences on humankind's biological and cultural evolution.

Say that five times. 

CA: [00:53:34] So I have a friend whose grandmother firmly believes in aliens and has been interviewed by the history channel for their TV show about aliens. Um, and she believes that like, there are different races of alien and you're, everyone's part something alien.

AE: [00:53:52] Sure. Um, that would make the most sense, what we know now about our own species 

CA: [00:53:58] sure thing.

So if we need an expert, okay. We might be able to get her call her up. 

AE: [00:54:04] You got her on speed dial. Is she in your top five? She, 

CA: [00:54:07] uh, her granddaughter 

AE: [00:54:08] is. Oh, so this was written by Arthur Horn, who proposed that the ingenue Chi were erase of blood drinking shape, shifting alien reptiles. 

CA: [00:54:21] My brain went to that scene from Twilight where she's like, your skin is so cold and blah, blah, blah.

I know what you are saying. Yeah. 

AE: [00:54:33] Vampire vampire, hang on little spider monkey. That's 

CA: [00:54:37] fully what I expected you to say it was vampire. Okay. So shape-shifting reptiles 

AE: [00:54:43] shape shifting alien reptiles and reptiles. Not only just like the average. 

CA: [00:54:50] The second cousin to the vampire, though, for sure. Similar 

AE: [00:54:53] lineage to be fair.

Reptiles are really fucking weird. I know that you've been a reptile owner, but it takes a very specific personality type to own reptiles. Yeah. You got to be weirdest thought historically  um, but, and that's because they're not an interactive species, right? They are very, uh, like alone ringer kind of situation.

So they're also just kind of misunderstood also like their cousins are like crocodiles and alligators and shit who are then cousins of the dinosaur. So I understand the correlation. Sure. Intersectionality there. Yep. 

CA: [00:55:31] I took a rhetoric class when I was at. Uh, in my undergrad program and we had to argue for an unlikely, like cause of something.

And my argument was that, uh, president Bush was actually a reptile in a human suit. Oh, like, uh, regrets. Yeah. Yep. That was my, my argument. I had a video to prove it, of him trying to open a door and he couldn't figure out how to, 

AE: [00:55:59] what does he say for me? One. So. Shame on you fool me twice. So you can't, you can't cool.

Again, 

CA: [00:56:09] that's all the evidence we 

AE: [00:56:10] needed. That's all we need. This theory was adapted and elaborated by the British conspiracy theorist. His name is David Ike, who maintained that the Bush family, Margaret Thatcher, Bob hope, and the British Royal family among others are, or were such creatures. You heard it here, folks.

Or they, and his other option is like they could have possibly been under the control of the alien reptiles. 

CA: [00:56:43] Uh, they got that vaccine that had the microchip that allowed other species to control their 

AE: [00:56:50] bodies. I had some of these. Should I talk about the microchip on ironically? Yeah. Oh, I'm so sorry. Yeah.

So that's a really fucking weird concept and really funny that you brought that up. So you are essentially. David Ike, is that, should we just go ahead and call you that from now on

CA: [00:57:06] if you would I'm David. Hi Teamsters. I'm David Ike. 

AE: [00:57:12] Um, so that that's like one of the very many alien conspiracy theories. 

CA: [00:57:18] I really enjoy alien conspiracy theories.

I think they're 

AE: [00:57:20] interesting. There's a lot of variations as well. Yeah. We'll get to so many of them in my regular segment, hashtag conspiracy theories with Alison 

CA: [00:57:30] Ooh, love the name. 

AE: [00:57:32] My last point, which is super, super, very short. Um, because I asked Ray, I said, what's your favorite conspiracy theory? And like right away, he was like, probably people who believe the earth is flat.

And that was like, that's fucking brilliant. Cause I wouldn't have thought of that originally, even though you brought that up almost immediately. Yeah. But members of the flat earth society claim to believe that the earth is flat.  walking around on the planet surface. Yeah. Looks and it feels flat. 

CA: [00:58:02] Now if you ride a bike, yeah.

AE: [00:58:06] Can you feel those Hills live? If you live in a fucking mountain, does the earth seem flat? No, correct. No, it does not. So they deem all evidence of the contrary, such as satellite photos of the earth as a sphere, as a fucking circle, to be fabricated or orchestrated sure. By NASA and other governmental agencies, it comes back to also walking on the moon.

Well, I think you've got 

CA: [00:58:33] to ask yourself, who does this benefit, like, who does the idea that Americans faked walking on the moon? Who does it benefit? We were in the space race with Russia. Yes. It obviously. Like I could, I believe that we walked on the moon, but I understand why some people might be skeptical because we were in the space race and Russia probably should have won, uh, according to where they were at the time.

However, no one benefits 

AE: [00:58:59] from believing the earth is flat. No, no single person. 

CA: [00:59:02] I talked to a flat earth or a while back. And I asked her that question, like, who does it benefit to believe that the earth is flat? And her response was. Well it's about convincing people, anything to start brainwashing them.

AE: [00:59:17] I mean, sure.

Like, could we accept the fact that like all of these things that we learn are false? Sure, sure. We could, which I think is healthy in a certain way. Do not accept information that is spoonfed to you. Fucking mind of your own question, everything. Have we been to the moon to know for sure. Looking back at earth that it is not flat, right?

No, but also like, I believe in science, 

CA: [00:59:47] uh, I believe in Neil de Grasse, Tyson, 

AE: [00:59:49] um, I believe in a thing called love. That's what the rhythm of my heart. I'm like, no, please keep going. Yeah, please. One more. No. 

CA: [01:00:00] Okay. So

AE: [01:00:06] leave all 

CA: [01:00:07] of this then. So was that your final conspiracy theory? It 

AE: [01:00:11] was. 

CA: [01:00:12] Can I share one of my favorite conspiracy theories? Because it's the most ridiculous thing ever tell me. Okay. That birds aren't real. 

AE: [01:00:21] There's this whole group of people who believe that birds aren't real, 

CA: [01:00:24] that they're all robots and they're all tracking you.

Have you ever seen a baby pigeon is their argument? 

AE: [01:00:30] No. 

CA: [01:00:33] So the argument is that the government releases fake birds to government releases 

AE: [01:00:37] like in big cities. Yeah. I'm into it. I know me too. That birds aren't real. That birds aren't real. 

CA: [01:00:46] And I know it's a conspiracy theory. Google it. No, no, no, no. Yeah. So 

AE: [01:00:54] I think that, well, and also it's interesting too, to see, and it's also like history adjacent.

Anyway, this is like philosophy one Oh one. It's like, what is real? Is anything real? Anything real? Like you, look, you see a color. You might interpret the color different than me. Like we might all be do though, walking around in a, in a. A world where we're seeing all different realities. So 

CA: [01:01:21] Neil deGrasse Tyson is on Tik TOK.

Degrassi. Yes. Is on Tik TOK. And he recently made this take, talk about living in the matrix. And his theory is that we are either just before living in the matrix or where the most recent rendition of the matrix. So the way that he thinks about it is society develops and evolves to the point where they have enough artificial technology to create a simulation.

That's so good that people don't know what the simulation, and then that society then builds and creates another simulation that then creates another simulation. But you don't know about the simulations before you, because. You haven't figured out because you think you're the first. Sure. 

AE: [01:02:11] So he says we are inception what hashtag inception.

CA: [01:02:15] Right? So he says, we are either the first society who has not yet created another society or we're at the very end of the chain. And we just haven't figured out how to do it yet. 

AE: [01:02:26] Okay. So that would be a conspiracy theory. Correct. 

CA: [01:02:29] And except it's coming from one of the most brilliant men in science. 

AE: [01:02:33] So that reminds me of that Apple created a artificial intelligence that, or Twitter.

I'm like totally there's a, of the brain. So, uh, Twitter was basically created by an artificial intelligence and that artificial intelligence was a woman and ended up being like, and basically it was like going off of like things that existed on the internet and, and, and the information that it found and it, and it turned out to be a Holocaust denier and a fucking racist and sexist, um, artificial intelligence.

Oh my. And they had to end up shutting it down because people were like, do you think the Holocaust existed? And they were like, sorry. No, like the Twitter. Yeah, really? Yeah. Oh 

CA: [01:03:18] my God. I've never heard that. 

AE: [01:03:19] Yeah. You're going to have to do a deep dive later. Yeah. So, and obviously that's because of like the information that's out there.

Right. Article article and telephone booth, you know, nose to it. It's coded to learn. Right. And so it takes, you know, what's around it. And, and so if you're existing on the internet and back to confirmation bias, then ultimately who knows. So let's, let's wrap up. Let's talk. 

CA: [01:03:48] Intersectionality real quick.

Let's I think one of the things that's so interesting about our two topics this week is the complexity. So you have conspiracy theories, which are people believing or not believing something that other people hold to be widely true. Stockholm syndrome is having to believe something that may or may not be true.

Both are super complex, 

AE: [01:04:15] super complex. And I'm going to just pick up where you left off 

CA: [01:04:20] there. Please say something. Okay.

AE: [01:04:26] I don't know how these things intersect.

CA: [01:04:28] I think that our perception shapes our reality. 

AE: [01:04:31] Oh, okay. Yes, I agree. 

CA: [01:04:32] So if we look at the way that perception shapes reality, then there's definitely intersection. Yeah. People 

AE: [01:04:38] who are being held captive, who feel, and I think to Stockholm syndrome can, is, is a spectrum.

It can be light love tolerance. Sure. Okay. Not necessarily, like, you're just absolutely in love. Cause I think a lot of times it's kind of like media focuses on like falling in love with your captor, which is not necessarily true based on your examples. 

CA: [01:05:01] Like, so not fell on the bite. 

AE: [01:05:03] Bell and the Buffalo, the Buffalo, not necessarily.

Um, so I think that that's a spectrum and thank you so much for listening. Yeah. 

CA: [01:05:11] I, I just think that way that we understand the world shapes our reality of the world. That's our, I mean, we can unpack that further, but I think to unpack that further, yeah. We would have to have another 45 minutes to an hour to really talk about what shaping your reality means based on what you choose to believe, or what's been reinforced for you.

Like if you believe in someone's humanity and they're reinforcing that with occasional kindness versus, you know, if you believe this thing and then it's being reinforced with fake news more, um, with other media sources that are reinforcing your confirmation, your, your bias.

AE: [01:05:53] And it's about your current experiences and you know, what you're taking away from.

I mean, everybody's living moment by moment, day by day by day. Right? So your current experience has very much influenced your just general ideology and thought, but also I'm sure are implanted in our future beliefs and, and the way that we express things and understand the world 

CA: [01:06:17] and understand the world.

Yeah. All right. The end. 

AE: [01:06:19] That's our podcast. Yeah. Thank you guys so much for listening. 

CA: [01:06:24] This episode was sponsored by Lauren mays our incredible patrion, incredible patron, phenomenal human. 

AE: [01:06:34] Good. A suggestion. If you want to pick a topic for us. Or if you want to support us in general, you know, definitely head over to our Patrion page.

We have our pasta recipe up for grabs, which is essentially gold. 

CA: [01:06:49] We've both survived on it for about 10 years now, 10 years. 

AE: [01:06:53] We're doing fine. We're great. We're here. Hardly have scurvy. We do have lots of vegetables in there. Um, anyway, we 

CA: [01:07:01] ended up vegan in anyone, all the vegans out there, all the vagues.

You could probably add things to me, not vegan, but he does 

AE: [01:07:10] call for, um, things that are not vegan. You can sub sub things out. We kind of make it either way, whatever floats your boat. We're not here to judge, but yes, you can definitely, uh, choose a topic for us. If you are interested in that, um, head over to our Patrion page, you can also visit us on the, our website, which is podcasts without an audience.com.

This is where we have our transcripts. We think it's really important to have our podcast be accessible to all people. 

CA: [01:07:41] So, yeah, so we provide our transcripts each week. They are great. I don't know what else to add. I should've said what you just said. Um, accessibility is important to us. We focus on providing our transcripts as up-to-date and accurate as possible.

If you have other tips for accessibility or other ways that we could make our podcast more accessible to you, let us know like DM, Allie loves to hear from you on. Instagram, I check our website and I don't check our website and check our email. Occasionally. 

AE: [01:08:20] Thank you guys so much for listening. If you support us blink twice, 

CA: [01:08:25] and if you're out there to keep listening, 

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