Episode 2: Spoon Theory and King Tut - Transcript

CA: [00:00:00] hi teamsters stairs. This is Carrie Ann and 

AE: [00:00:19] I'm Allison. And this is podcast without an audience 

CA: [00:00:23] where two friends pick two topics and find it intersectionality 

AE: [00:00:27] or not or not. So we're figuring it all out. How are you? 

CA: [00:00:33] I'm good. It's been a long week. 

AE: [00:00:36] It's been a really good, and I am really excited to be doing this.

CA: [00:00:40] We've had some really good feedback. I think so too. We've got our first fan. Yeah, it's working out. 

AE: [00:00:47] So the audience is like what? Build it,build it and they will come. 

CA: [00:00:52] Build your own adventure. Choose your adventure. What are you talking about? 

AE: [00:00:56] I was referencing the Bible God's book. 

CA: [00:00:59] I [00:01:00] thought you were referencing field of dreams. No, if you build it, he will come. That's not the Bible. That'sField of Dreams 

AE: [00:01:08] I was thinking 

about the arc. Oh, good thing. We have a history and psychology podcast. Huh? 

CA: [00:01:14] We're completely legit. We are, we are film aficionados. We read books. I read a couple books. Okay. 

AE: [00:01:22] So something else that I thought of, and my cat is hanging around. Um, her name is Dolly as in Dolly Parton. Yes. She's a sweet angel.

So you might hear her, but, um, anyway, I don't want to be like a bearer of bad news, but did you know that Mr. Von Trapp Died? 

CA: [00:01:38] Yes! 

AE: [00:01:38] I wanted to call you but I thought "I have to save it for the podcast."

CA: [00:01:44] I know I had the same thought in that I completely forgot about it. 

AE: [00:01:47] So what's the significance of that movie to you? I mean, it changed your life. It did. 

CA: [00:01:52] It was my first musical, I think, ever that I liked and watch unrepeat sure I'm now musical fanatic. I [00:02:00] have been to Austria. Yeah. Uh, my grandfather was in world war II. Yeah. There are a lot of. I feel like I'm missing the one that you are expecting me to say, is there a thing? 

AE: [00:02:10] No, there's not. Well, no, this just that your Liezel, uh, reincarnated. 

CA: [00:02:15] I might be Liesl reincarnated. I was once 16 going on 17. I am now much older than them.

AE: [00:02:22] You're 29 going on 30. Gotta get some eye cream. Okay. How depressing. 

CA: [00:02:32] After the significance of the sound of music, which was so impactful for my formative years, my mom and I still sing it constantly. 

AE: [00:02:42] Wholesome. You are. 

CA: [00:02:44] Thank you. Thank you. I was very different than everyone else I grew up with. Um, there was not a theater. I mean, there was a theater in my hometown, but like the theater kids and the creative kids were not cool. Unlike your experience in high school [00:03:00] where the creative artsy kids were, the cool ones. Cool. Ours was definitely cool, which I think is just one of the many ways that our, the way we were raised is, is so different. Um, even though we are also very similar. So what was the significance of the sound of music for you? 

AE: [00:03:16] Oh, uh, passing the mic, passing through a metaphorical, pass the mic situation. Like I, I often hold up a pretend microphone and now that's a real microphone, real microphone in front of me. Um, it's adorable by the way. It's like a tiny alien. 

CA: [00:03:31] I know. It's so cute. 

AE: [00:03:33] Um, I mean the, I don't ha I don't know. My significance would be that, I mean, it's a fabulous movie. And, um, the thing that I remember most about it is that it came on to VHS tapes. Did it really? So I was really familiar with the first half of it and had no idea that Nazis were involved at [00:04:00] all until my adult life, where I finished the actual thing and fully understood. I was like, this is a happy movie. Everybody's fine. Everybody's singing. When then fucking Nazis show up at a nowhere to be there. 

CA: [00:04:14] It, I mean, going back and watching it as an adult and you see like all the stuff leading up to the Nazis randomly coming in, in the second act. Um, so you never made it to the second act. Yeah. You were stuck in the first act where Julie Andrews is falling in love with the captain and they have a whole bunch of babies. They're his babies, his wife. 

AE: [00:04:36] I was like, did I miss that too? First of all, how many children can one woman have? How many were there? 

CA: [00:04:42] There were seven in the movie. However, this, I don't know that we've ever talked about this. I have actually seen the Von Trapp family singers, perform. Well, so these are the great grandchildren of the actual captain and Maria Von [00:05:00] Trapp. 

AE: [00:05:00] So this is, and they're like out on the road, they're like the Partridge family kind of thing. 

CA: [00:05:05] There's four of them. 

AE: [00:05:06] Um, and they are, they just like the whitest kids you've ever seen.

CA: [00:05:09] They're so white. They are really talented singers. I'll for sure send you some of their songs. Um, but they live somewhere in like, The Midwest, which is in the United States. So captain and Maria Von Trapp, when they fled Austria bada-bing, bada- boom ended up in the Midwest. 

AE: [00:05:26] Well, that wasn't in the movie either.

CA: [00:05:28] That was on the third VHS tape. 

Wow. Wow.

AE: [00:05:34] You know, it's so funny. Cause I remember in college you were like, I went to a concert this weekend and I was like, what concert? And you were like Celtic woman. And I was like, we should be friends because that's fucking weird. That's like, so I saw Enya over the weekend and uh, it was pretty cool.

CA: [00:05:51] Um, if,  Enya had come to Greensboro, I probably would have seen it. She's a... 

AE: [00:05:55] fun factorooney. She's never done a concert. She's a [00:06:00] recluse. 

CA: [00:06:00] I love that. 

AE: [00:06:02] She's like the only woman or only person who's like never gone on tour and still has like platinum albums and stuff. 

CA: [00:06:09] Oh my gosh. I had no idea. How are you more up on Celtic music than I am?

AE: [00:06:16] She's like, you know, some, like, I don't know. I always think of like, Lord of the rings. So let's get into what we're getting into today. You got a topic for me or what? 

CA: [00:06:24] I, I may have written a little something down. 

AE: [00:06:26] You may have 

CA: [00:06:27] just for you. 

AE: [00:06:28] Totally unprepared. 

CA: [00:06:29] I had no idea we were doing this totally unprepared. I just showed up with food and hoped that you would take me in, um, that typically works my topic for this week.

You may actually be familiar with this topic and I kind of hope you are, because I think it would be really interesting to talk about and to get your perspective, but I'm going to break the rules just a little bit. And I'm going to talk about intersectionality on our podcast about intersectionality.

Before we talk about. Intersectionality on our podcast about intersectionality 

AE: [00:06:56] okay kind of a labyrinth situation kind of that David Bowie. 

CA: [00:06:59] Yeah, [00:07:00] absolutely. I am currently the baby with the power. So I'm going to be talking about the connection between physical health and mental health. And in a later episode, we will talk about like models of disability and benefits of looking at things from a societal perspective versus an individual perspective.

But today, today this day, we will be talking about things from an individual perspective. 

AE: [00:07:24] Do you prefer to work in teams or alone? 

CA: [00:07:27] When we were in school? I did all the work. When we were in teams 

AE: [00:07:30] who came up with a group paper. 

CA: [00:07:32] Group papers are the worst. 

AE: [00:07:34] I mean, it's not a real thing. It's like somebody, like you writes the whole thing and everybody else just fucks off somewhere.

CA: [00:07:39] I mean, even through grad school, that was the whole model was I went to grad school and still wrote the paper for all the people who should have been writing the paper, which I don't hate because I would rather do it myself and like have control. I might be a bit of a control freak. T M first thing we are going to do is lay some groundwork about indivisible [00:08:00] meaning invisible disabilities.

So there are disabilities that are not immediately apparent. They are typically chronic and significantly impair normal life activities. Think like people experiencing chronic pain, um, people with lupus arthritis, traumatic brain injury Lyme's disease. So basically it's, it's an underlying chronic illness that you wouldn't be able to recognize.

Right? Exactly. So the key here is that it's disability that creates a challenge for a person who has it, but the reality of that disability is not easily recognized or acknowledged. So there is a certain privilege associated with being able to pass as non-disabled. And we're, we'll talk about ableism.

There's a little bit in here about that, but mostly it will be saved for another episode, which also leads into models of disability. And we can just keep warm polling from there. The disadvantage of course, is that if you need help or support, um, it won't be immediately provided to you. 

AE: [00:08:53] So people like not believing in your sick.

Right? 

CA: [00:08:56] Exactly. There's a lack of understanding that can really impact your social [00:09:00] capital. So you might be perceived by society as being lazy or weak or un motivated. 

AE: [00:09:04] Well, and you might get into this. Also, so forgive me if I'm stepping on your toes, but a lot of times women are not perceived or not taken seriously.

As far as like medical concern, when they're experiencing pain, 

CA: [00:09:14] I actually don't get into that. So that's a really great point. And you're absolutely right. 

AE: [00:09:19] Especially, especially women, I've heard a lot of horror stories about women having like cysts and things that like are bursting and they're like, something is super duper wrong.

CA: [00:09:27] Absolutely. Basically the, the perception that they have is that the doctors just kind of are like, well, see how it goes and come back and we'll talk about it next. Right? And even people of color have experienced this and doctors not believing that they experienced pain and the way that people experience pain, which is a whole other issue entirely.

Um, but not being given pain meds or anesthesia during surgery, because they just didn't believe that people experienced pain. 

AE: [00:09:54] Holy shit. You have an example in mind. 

CA: [00:09:56] There are a few examples, um, especially [00:10:00] like let's. Go back to, you know, there was an article written about, uh, people of color being diagnosed with schizophrenia as kind of a catch all for mental health and then being put in institutions and asylums and then electric shock therapy or other things, and not being given any pain meds around that, which you can imagine is not a good model to follow the whole eugenics thing, which I'm sure we'll talk about at some point. Um, again, there was a lack of payment management. It's just, it's pervasive. If you're not a white man, then you don't experience pain in the same way. And therefore your pain is invalid, really deep belly bath.

AE: [00:10:37] Okay. This is a comedy. It was a comedy podcast. 

CA: [00:10:41] I feel like I've done a lot of leading up into my topic and I'm going to actually get there in just a second. So we can already see how a person's disability might impact their mental health in addition to chronic pain or fatigue. So having someone's social capital constantly being called into question impacts your mental health.

Um, additionally, more and more people are recognizing that mental health can also [00:11:00] be a chronic and invisible disability like addiction, eating disorders, personality disorders, anxiety, depression, autism, spectrum disorder, bipolar disorder, so on and so forth. They're exhausting. Like having anything going on in your body is exhausting.

And it's also hard for people to relate to. Absolutely are, um, people who are quote unquote healthy, perceived themselves to be healthy. It's hard. It's really hard for some people to put themselves in those shoes. You're exactly right. Which I think is again, part of the issue and we're all, we're building up to something I promise.

Um, so as someone who has experienced chronic mental health issues for many years, I can personally attest to how difficult this shit is from day to day canceling plans, having to text your best friend before visiting her, to let her know that you're having a bad mental health day. I may have done that this morning and asking her if she might be able to run interference at some point on a podcast 

AE: [00:11:54] with this giant bottle of champagne is thank goodness for it's just like our theme, right?

CA: [00:11:59] Popping [00:12:00] champagne. I mean, we've had, I mean, all whopping two episodes, we've had, uh, this, the champagne you're right. 

AE: [00:12:05] And we're just comforting because also, you know, it's a, it's a sophisticated beverage and, and sophisticated ladies. Well, I'm, I'm believing. So in this very moment, I, I think that that's probably a pretty accurate, thank you. And my sweat pants continue. 

CA: [00:12:21] Okay. So the intersection of all of these issues is a communication issue. How do you tell someone without an invisible disability, what it's like to have a disability in a way that they can understand and then begin to de-stigmatize the fallacy that people are just lazy question Mark.

Question Mark. Like, I'm going to tell you the answer. This is where spoon theory was born. Have you heard of spoon theory? I've heard of it. Okay. So I'm going to tell you about spoon theory, because I think it's so fascinating in 2003, a woman named Christine Miserandino, was out to dinner with her best friend power to the women and best friends.

She has [00:13:00] lupus and she took her meds with dinner as usual, her best friend who had been with her to like multiple doctor's appointments and kind of been involved since she was diagnosed with lupus, turned to her and said, what is it like to. To have lupus. And Christine was really surprised by this. And she was like, well, you know, I mean, I take meds every day and like my hands hurt because they get swollen a lot.

And it's an auto immune disease. I actually don't know a whole lot about lupus otherwise, but those are kind of the basics. And, um, her friend was like, cool, but that's bullshit. What's it like to have, tell me what it's like best friend, like tell me, right. It's very similar to conversations that you and I have had where I'm like, well, this is the surface level thing.

And you're like, no, but I want, I want more, tell me more. How can we relate? So Christine, they were sitting in a restaurant and Christine picks up all the spoons that are on the table. There are 12 spoons, and I want to know what restaurant, 

AE: [00:13:52] Oh, this is some fine dining shit. Like this is for the butter. This is for the icecream, this is for each sorbet. Serving you'll [00:14:00] have every single thing on it. So they're having the real New York experience. 

CA: [00:14:04] They're having the New York experience with multiple levels of fine dining. There are 12 spoons. Between the two of them on this table. Wow. And a later article, I read that she may have picked up multiple spoons from multiple tables. I like to think it was 12 spoons from one table. 

AE: [00:14:19] I want to, I want to envision her like going around and being like, can I borrow? She'd be like, you know, people from New Jersey were like, Oh, this is. 

CA: [00:14:28] But anyways, so she collected all the spoons on the table and handed them to her friends. And she explained that the difference between being sick and being healthy is having to make choices and think about the things the rest of the world doesn't have to healthy non disabled people have unlimited possibilities.

They have tons of energy every morning. They can wake up and just do whatever the hell they want to do. They don't have to think about it. They have an unlimited number of spoons as a person with an invisible disability, or really any disability. You start your day with a specific number of spoons. You would start your day with 12 [00:15:00] spins.

That number might not be the same tomorrow, but for this moment you have 12 spins. Okay. At that point Christine's friend was like, cool. If I only have 12 spoons, can I have more spoons? Because I've got more than 12, you know, things to do today. 

AE: [00:15:13] She's like, it's like the genie mentality where you wish for more wishes.

CA: [00:15:17] That's exactly what this is. And Christine's like, nah, bruh, this is you get what you get. 12 is sufficient. Exactly. 12 days of Christmas. Um, so certain tasks will cost you spoons depending on your disability, getting out of bed and making food so that you can take your meds might cost you anywhere from like one to three spoons.

AE: [00:15:37] So if you've only got 12 spoons in a day and you've already used even one right before you get up and take a shower, if you used a quarter of your spoons, exactly. I just did. I counted them, my fingers,

CA: [00:15:52] your shower, because you know, if you have lupus and your joints are swollen, reaching up to wash your hair and then reaching down to shave your legs might [00:16:00] cost you additional spoons. Whereas someone who is able to really enjoy a shower and doesn't feel pain while showering, it might not cost them a spoon.

So it's very individualized. But the goal at the end of the day is to have not spent all of your spoons. You've got to like, keep one in your back pocket, so to speak, right. You never want to run out. Cause if you run out while you're driving, you're screwed. I mean, pull over, take a nap, wake up and try it again.

Later 2003 is spoon theory was born and then, so it came from her. It came from, does she? She did on her blog blog very soon. I'm sure. And I mean, it's been. Almost 20 years, like 2003. It's now 2021.

I had not actually thought that through before I said that. 

AE: [00:16:51] Totally switching gears, but that means that 9/11 is 20 years ago. 

9/11. That was 

CA: [00:16:55] 2001. Yeah.

AE: [00:16:57] Yeah. Wow. Just to kind of bring it [00:17:00] down just for a second, 

CA: [00:17:01] because talking about disabilities is anyway, time is weird. Time is so weird. Also I read this article about a girl walking into a bar and showing the bartender, her ID. She asked if he needed her to take it out of her wallet and he's like, no, I can see the one and just think about that. 

AE: [00:17:19] We're not no, yes, no, no, no, no, no people born in the year, 2000 or now. Almost 21 years old. Wow. Time is so strange. 

CA: [00:17:29] So weird, not linear. I just feel like you just push a button and you jump forward 15 years.

AE: [00:17:36] Yeah. And also this whole year has completely stood. Still so much has happened. And yet my life has not. I mean, it's, I've been inside for like 365 days because pretty much next week is like when shutdown happened 

CA: [00:17:51] right at my birthday, I'm a Pisces for all you Pisces listeners. 

AE: [00:17:56] So what is the, what are the characteristics of a Pisces?

CA: [00:17:58] We are very [00:18:00] creative, emotional where the most mature sign of the Zodiac. We're the last sign of the Zodiacs. We have characteristics from all of the signs before us, but the biggest and most defining characteristic of Pisces is that our symbol is to fish. And when swimming in opposite directions and it's like, Pisces are always experiencing some kind of conflict because we're always like battling and chasing.

Two ideas at the same time. 

AE: [00:18:25] That sounds restless. 

CA: [00:18:27] It's a lot of work. I have less spoons now than I did at the beginning of the day. Uh, and you, I mean, since we're disclosing Zodiac information, we'll get back to spoons in a minute. You are a Capricorn. 

AE: [00:18:42] Yes. So, uh, we're just right at the time. 

CA: [00:18:45] I don't know how I feel about that. I, I think he might be wrong about that is debatable. Refer to rule number one, right? Let's go back. We'll we'll come back to our Zodiac signs, um, and dating profiles at some point. So spoon theory was born almost 20 years [00:19:00] ago. And so we're a category of people who self identify as is. Um, these are people with chronic illness and invisible disabilities and they have, you can put #spoonie on anything and find other people who are also spoonies it's like, they're, uh, what did they call the like lists where you can chat with people?

AE: [00:19:20] Chat Rooms?

CA: [00:19:21] Sure, Chat rooms for spoonies for like pretending we're in like 1998. So the, a chatroom someday or their servers where people talk, I don't know. I don't actually know much Facebook groups, Facebook groups for spoonies. There've been a few attempts to really like isolate things that might cost people spoons so that non spoons will understand this better.

For example, there are social spoons, people with social anxiety, it might cost them more spoons to have to interact with people. 

AE: [00:19:46] That's tough. Yeah. And I, and I really do think that like, after this year, there's going to be a lot of struggle with, with being in social spaces. Absolutely. In crowds. 

Yeah. And I think we're all just kind of [00:20:00] weirded out by other people right now, especially in those who experienced those anxieties before, it's just going to be completely fucking amplified.

CA: [00:20:06] You're exactly right. In fact, I made a new friend recently at work and new next door neighbor friend, and I'm like, 

AE: [00:20:12] Oh, you're just so many new, so many new friends, 

CA: [00:20:14] which is great because I'm also super introverted except I don't know how to talk to them. So like I walked up to my next door neighbors house and knocked on the door with a glass of wine.

And I was like, I don't know how you feel about this, but do you want to hang out? And she was like, yeah, absolutely. There you go. So we're all being weird together. Um, which works, not weird. 

AE: [00:20:32] I think that's really nice neighbors. Talk to me. 

CA: [00:20:35] Well, you live in a big complex. I live in a little, little village.

They're also like physical activity spoons. You know how if you have, um, a disability that impacts your movement, that could be really difficult. Executive functioning spoons for people with ADHD, add autism, spectrum disorder. Anything else? And the shittiest part of all of this theory is that you cannot get spoons [00:21:00] back.

So like once you've spent your spoons for the day...  I don't know why I picked this topic I feel like my lisp is coming  out a little bit extra.

Spoons is A tricky 

AE: [00:21:09] one.

CA: [00:21:09] Once you've spent your spoon

I hope people will find this endearing. You can save them. So if you have spoons leftover, keep them in your back pocket, you can roll over like maybe a certain amount of spins. Like your vacation days. You can have a certain number of, but no more. No, no less. 

AE: [00:21:29] How did you know about the vacation policy I wrote? 

CA: [00:21:32] Yeah. Mine says use them or lose them. So I like yours much better. You can also borrow spoons from the next day. Like if you know that you have. An opportunity to just stay home and not do X, Y, and Z tomorrow. Then you might be able to take a spoon from tomorrow, but that means you're going to have less spoons for tomorrow.

AE: [00:21:50] This might be completely insensitive to say but it reminds, me of WeightWatchers like, I have a certain number that I can spend and I'm just saving them all up for Friday [00:22:00] night when I can have my giant bottle of champagne. Okay. And pizza. 

CA: [00:22:03] Yep. I saved them for pizza. Yeah. Yeah. Oh yeah. No, I it's very, it's a similar concept. WeightWatchers was actually inspired by spoon theory. So progressive. I know it is a finite number anyways, getting back to ableism because really, I mean, spoon theory was developed by one person. She's phenomenal. She has a blog. I highly recommend that you go and read her blog. We will link it in our Instagram posts for this week so that you can go and find her blog.

I will also include some interesting infographic about. Spoons. So go on, learn more. Shout out to your spoony friends. They are not okay. Everyone's struggling. No one is okay. No one is okay. Just assume nothing. Yep. Okay. So getting back to ableism, um, which, uh, is actually one of my favorite topics. Ableism assumes that non-disabled people are the standard and therefore excluding disabled people from spaces and conversations means that we're [00:23:00] contributing to taking away spoons without giving people the benefit of the doubt.

The idea that disabled people are by fault inferior. When in reality, it's just another way for the mind or body to be. The other issue here is the impact of a spoonie of being a spoonie and not having the same social capital that a non spoonie might have and how judgment is placed on those individuals who aren't able to produce the same output and resources, and therefore don't have the same value to society, which, I mean, I think you and I both know disabled people, um, who are contributors to society and a million amazing and wonderful ways when provided with the right support.

AE: [00:23:41] And so I'm thinking particularly about the deaf community. Yeah. And about the culture surrounding that and such, um, such a community culture and pride, um, for themselves. 

CA: [00:23:58] And yeah, I think you're [00:24:00] exactly right. And that's one of the things I want to come back to when we talk about cultural models of disability, because the deaf community really led that charge.

AE: [00:24:07] Um, well, and that's the thing that I love too, is that they they're like nothing is wrong with us. Um, you know, we, another way of being, and there's such a pride and even the cochlear implant, um, argument, you know, about waiting until children are old enough to make that decision for themselves. I know it was a big thing.

CA: [00:24:29] Yeah. Consent is mandatory and every area of your life, especially when it comes to surgeries and implanting young children, All of which, I mean, you and I agree with this on every level. I think another background piece of information here that might be relevant is that I went to grad school at, um, a liberal arts university for the deaf and.

Have worked within the deaf community for a long time. Um, I have hearing loss myself and really identify with [00:25:00] a lot of deaf culture and I appreciate deaf culture. Um, and I've learned so much from just being in the deaf community. So I think you're exactly right. 

AE: [00:25:09] And I think it's also really powerful that you've been able to, you know, somebody who has hearing loss, but can also hear having gone to a, for your master's program, all of your classes were in sign language and you were to develop relationships with people who were went on to become all sorts of different careers and paths in that, you know, that it's, that it's okay.

CA: [00:25:29] That people exist. People with differing, uh, realities exist. And you're absolutely right. And like I said, disability topics, ableism, audism, which is the oppression of deaf people. Not to be confused with autism, right. So audism has a D right. Autism has a T we'll come back to all of these things time and time again.

I'm sure. Just because I do love talking about it. 

AE: [00:25:53] Well, the other thing is that, um, so when we were, so we took four semesters of sign language together [00:26:00] or took four. So I was like one less than being able to minor in sign language, which was the deaf culture class, which I really wish that I took. But one of the things that I took away from it was that there's like an openness in the deaf community where it's like, how much did your car cost?

And you're like, Oh, it costs $20,000. Where in the hearing community. It's like super rude to talk about just like a much more forward and like open and honest language. 

CA: [00:26:23] Oh, absolutely. That's much more directed. Um, I actually have a quick story that I'm going to share about that a little bit, but the deaf community is so focused on sharing information and making sure that information is accessible.

So, um, I noticed after I spent some time at the school for the deaf. And the university for the death that whenever someone would walk up and I was in the middle of a conversation, I would immediately catch up the person who just walked up and say, Oh, this is what we're talking about because you don't want people to be left out because, you know, deaf people are already so far removed from so much information.

So when I came [00:27:00] back to Greensboro, after my grad program, I remember walking up to a, or yeah, I was walking up to a group of people and I was like, Oh, so what are we talking about? And. They just kind of looked at me. I was like, Oh, that's a deaf culture thing. That's not a hearing thing. You don't need to update me that your own personal, you know, 

AE: [00:27:17] they were talking about you.

CA: [00:27:18] Right. They were absolutely talking. It got very quiet. It was very awkward. Yeah. So w we'll get into all of that. So I do want to share one quick story. I was at a conference for disability rights and advocacy in 2018, 17, 19, somewhere around there, time is irrelevant. Normal things were normal. There were no masks.

I was working at the school for the deaf at that time. So I was there with like deaf coworkers. Uh, we, there were a few interpreters and we walked into our first session and the room was like a large auditorium type place. Conference room. Yeah. And it was completely dark. Like all the lights were off.

There were no tables or chairs. There was just a presenter kind of standing at the front of the [00:28:00] room talking. One of my deaf colleagues, asked the interpreter if she'd be willing to turn on the lights. And then there was a man with a Walker and he raised his hand and he asked if we could pull out the chairs that were like lining the side of the room.

So we all went and got chairs. And then finally we ended up with, uh, there was a blind woman in the room who needed to be able to set down her typing machine. And I forget what they're called. I'm so sorry. But she needed to be able to like type and take notes. And so she requested the tables and eventually we had everything that we needed.

And the point was that people with disabilities are socially encouraged to ask or required to ask for the things that they need. Whereas people without disabilities just kind of expect everything to happen for them. Uh, so there was no chairs in the room, nothing. It was like, you got to speak up if you, if you can say exactly.

And only people with disability spoke up and asked for the things that they need. Sure. But if you're a spoonie, how, how many spoons, how is that? [00:29:00] How much is it going to cost you? I mean, I'm sure it's exhausting. 

AE: [00:29:04] So I, I w I've never been able to dissect it this way. It's blowing my mind so glad that we're having this conversation.

CA: [00:29:11] Cause I don't think we would have had this conversation in this way without having a podcast because. I don't randomly research things and bring them to you. And I'm like, here, let's discuss, it, occurs to me that we need to do some things with our podcast to make sure that they remain accessible for all of my people out there, all of our people out there, if you are out there, we need to make sure that our episodes are transcribed.

And I think that there's some technology out there that will, you know, transcribe and we can just go back and edit. We also need to make sure that all of our pictures, that we're posting have image descriptions for blind listeners, to be able to know what's happening in the picture. And that's something I'm so bad about doing.

Um, and it has been brought to my attention recently. So it's something I really want to work on and I felt like we could work on together. We're trying to be really intentional [00:30:00] about all of this. So that's my that's for this week. 

AE: [00:30:06] I totally agree. I think, um, that was a really important thing to bring up and also just kind of open up a little bit about yourself too, cause I think that's important for. For people to understand, you know, where you're coming from, where we're coming from and also what kind of audience we're going to connect with too. Yeah. And the things that are important to us and that we're passionate about. Who you, who? Yeah. All right. You ready for some history? 

CA: [00:30:33] I'm ready. All right.

And we have some ASMR.

All right. 

AE: [00:30:44] You ready for my story? Let's get it. Okay. So I'm going to be doing, um, kind of the life and death of, of King Tutankhamun or King Tut. 

CA: [00:30:57] Wow. Yes. Wow. I'm really [00:31:00] excited. 

AE: [00:31:01] I am too. This is one of the things that I, um, this is like one of the stories that was like, you know, I, this is why I want to do a podcast.

CA: [00:31:09] This is a great story. I actually only remember what I learned in middle school about. King Tutankhamun. And it was minimal at best. 

AE: [00:31:19] Well, what year was that? There might've been some changes since then. Ooh, well maybe around that time. Anyway, we will get into it. Um, okay, so we're going to start out with a little bit of family drama.

CA: [00:31:34] That's spill the tea

AE: [00:31:36] so King Tutankhamun, or he was a Pharaoh of Egypt. We all know that we're in Egypt right now. And like the Pharaoh. 

CA: [00:31:46] Yeah. Pharaoh Tutankhamun doesn't really roll off the tongue quite as well as writing King Tut. That's what they call him. Yep. That's his, you know, Street name is alias, right?

AE: [00:31:57] Okay. So his father was the [00:32:00] Pharaoh Akhanten so his mother was his father's sister. Okay. So that meant that, so his mother was his father's sister. 

CA: [00:32:09] So his aunt and his grandma are the same person. No maternal and paternal group parents, are the same people. Exactly. But the family tree goes straight up. 

AE: [00:32:18] So, so it's, yes, it's problematic at best.

So it's interesting because she was never identified by name, like when they were, um, because we'll get into this later, but there was this huge excavation of a lot of the tombs, um, in the area at the time. So they knew about Pharaoh , but his, uh, King Tut's mother was known as "the younger lady." 

CA: [00:32:40] Ooh. Scandal.

AE: [00:32:43] So, you know, it was a little bit of inbreeding happening, so what could go wrong? Uh, so Tutankhamun. Took the throne at age eight. Okay. Eight or nine. So there's a little bit of discrepancy about a year. Right. So kind of threw out the narrative here, but he took the [00:33:00] throne when he was a baby. 

CA: [00:33:01] Well, and that was a thing at the time, too?

AE: [00:33:02] It wasn't even like a decision. It was just like, hope. Here you go, birthright. 

CA: [00:33:06] You know, here's what he had some really good advisors. 

AE: [00:33:09] So we'll get into that as well. So, um, Tutankhamun was a really small guy. So when they dug up his grave, um, he was like 5'6". 

CA: [00:33:18] I mean, he was, he was 5'6" at eight. Wait, when did he die? 

AE: [00:33:22] We'll get it. Okay. He had large front incisors and an overbite, which all of his family members had. Probably because they were all related. Um, and after his death, when they analyzed the cloth in his tomb, like his loincloth, basically they knew that he had a really narrow waist and rounded hips.

CA: [00:33:43] Huh? 

AE: [00:33:43] Yeah. So he was kind of delicate. He was not like your typical King. He was like archetype, 

CA: [00:33:51] vampire, pretty boy. Right? 

AE: [00:33:53] Like Edward Collin in the first one with an overbite I have in my notes. [00:34:00] "I know what you're thinking. He must have been a killer with the ladies" 

CA: [00:34:04] I was thinking about actually, 

AE: [00:34:06] but he has like, like King Godfrey or King Joffrey, Joffrey vibes, a little bit, um, kind of frenzy.

Yep. Um, so just to kind of like piggyback off of that, he, he married his own half sister. Okay. Very on brand on brand. Yes. But on a sad note though, during their marriage, they did lose two daughters, one at three months premature and the other one shortly after birth. Um, so during his reign, he decided to make a lot of changes that directly reverse some of the decisions that his own father had done during his reign.

One of the largest changes was that King Tut's father essentially forbid worship of any other God and solely focused the worship on the God Aten, which is who he was named after, or who was named after him. So that's who he was originally named. [00:35:00] And then he ended up changing his name. Oh, okay. So an Aten was like a really obscure God.

And can you imagine, like growing up and like believing very adamantly about one particular thing and then the King coming in and being like, so we're changing everything around, you know, very King Henry the eighth, like all of a sudden. 

CA: [00:35:20] I am. I am. 

AE: [00:35:21] Yeah, it's the church of England. 

CA: [00:35:23] I can only imagine that from the position of having grown up in a very conservative Christian, small town, not following along with the traditional Christian values, um, and then moving to another place where I was able to kind of explore that more.

So I've opposite experience. 

AE: [00:35:40] Sure. So Aten at the time was considered to be a really obscure God and Aten  was considered to be an aspect of the composite deity Ra and Ra represented the daytime sun. So just to juxtapose that, Aten represented the sun in the underworld [00:36:00] and the upside down the upside down and Aman was the previous worshiped main, main guy, right.

Or one of them so many, there were many, so King Tut's father kind of focused at all on Aten. When King came back to power, he was like, not really crazy about this, which was really strange because this kid is eight. 

CA: [00:36:24] I mean, that's advanced thinking for an eight year old. 

AE: [00:36:25] And so just kind of keep that in the back of your mind, who might not be doing all the thinking for himself?

CA: [00:36:31] That would be my assumption. I know, eight year olds work. 

AE: [00:36:33] So he did remove the Aten aspect of his own name and replace it with Amun. So Tutankhamun right. And he did move the capital back to Thebes. So his father had moved the capital away and he now reclaimed it. Also, we forget the first capital of our own country was Philadelphia.

That's true. So his first act as Pharaoh was to remove his father's mummy from the tomb [00:37:00] in  and rebury it in the Valley of Kings. 

CA: [00:37:03] Is that a good thing or is that sacrosanct? Cause I could feel, I feel like it could go either way. 

AE: [00:37:08] Well, it's not necessarily good or bad. These days, but at the time it was like your body is supposed to rest in its place for X number of time, but moving it to the Valley of Kings, which is where, um, King Tut's, um, lineage lineage, or his, his, uh, tomb was discovered, became kind of like where they started burying all of the pharaohs and all of the really important people at the time.

CA: [00:37:33] So it wasn't Valley of Kings when he moved his father there, it became that when modern historians were like, there are a whole bunch of Kings here, let's call it the Valley of Kings. 

AE: [00:37:43] I don't know I'm going to say that that's right. Research said, move to the Valley of Kings. I'm sure it might not have been considered that at the time.

Right. Um, but then  kind of became, but, you know, I, I do know that it was really important at the time to keep it was a very segregated kind [00:38:00] of situation. So it wouldn't surprise me if they had kept all of those separate the whole time. He had a really short reign and we'll kind of get into it. Um, And he was known for bringing things back to the way that it was before his father's time.

But the most important part or the most interesting part to me is, um, that during his time he had an advisor named, Ay,  A- Y pronounced eye. Yeah. He was considered to be like the power behind the throne. Okay. And because King Tut was literally a child during, uh, the ruling of this country, you know, Ay would have been responsible for providing counsel and like weighing in on any decision making 

CA: [00:38:45] almost sounds like you're inserting yourself into the story. Like, "I" would have been responsible 

AE: [00:38:49] it was pretty much me. I made all those decisions. 

CA: [00:38:52] This is why you picked this story so that you could insert yourself into history. 

AE: [00:38:56] I think it's just like any, you know, ruler. Obviously they have people [00:39:00] on their team, but I mean, there's a reason obviously why you have to be a certain age to rule now because right.

CA: [00:39:06] Cause you can't be eight years old to be expected to know anything about anything. 

AE: [00:39:12] I mean, I felt like our country has been ruled by an eight year old for the past four years. 

CA: [00:39:15] Thank goodness. It was only four years. 

AE: [00:39:17] Oh, my God. You're right. Like so much longer. It felt like, but you're right. I was four. So King Tut's rain was not particularly noteworthy.

I mean, he made like the decision to change the religion back and everything, but like his, his role was such a blip on the radar, but what made him really famous was his death. 

CA: [00:39:39] Ooh, intrigue. 

AE: [00:39:41] He passed in 1324 or 1325. Um, so he died at just age... this is BC. 

CA: [00:39:49] Okay. I was about to say my goodness. That's like the time of the Queens of England.

AE: [00:39:54] This is B-C done that. 

CA: [00:39:58] Sorry. Thank you for clarifying. 

AE: [00:39:59] You're [00:40:00] welcome. He died at just 17 or 18 years old. All right.

CA: [00:40:03] Poor little guy, 

AE: [00:40:04] but after death. Um, and through tradition of the times that person would be mummified. So I'm about to walk you through the steps of mummification 

CA: [00:40:14] is this like

the brain through the nose thing?

AE: [00:40:17] This is exactly the brand through the nose thing. I'm so excited. So we use the word mummification to describe like dehydration sometimes in modern times, like, like mummified fruit, right. Or something like that, or, you know, anything that you find shriveled up in your wall or whatever. Yeah. 

CA: [00:40:34] I found a mummified Groundhog on a farm once it was just a dead Groundhog that looked like it had been mummified.

AE: [00:40:42] Right, right. I don't think anyone actually took the brain out. Yeah. I guarantee you the tradition, the traditional context involves removal of all the internal organs. So technically taxidermy would be considered mummification. Yeah. Ooh. Okay. We have modern mommies, [00:41:00] modern mommies and 

CA: [00:41:01] ancient aliens and modern mummies.

AE: [00:41:03] Yeah. Filling all of the towns and rural America. Um, here's how mummification works. Are you all ready? So ready. So your first inkling was correct. You insert a hook through the nose or near the nose and you kind of kind of scramble it around. 

CA: [00:41:21] Um, I would just like to clarify, is this COVID testing or is this, and it feels very invasive.

AE: [00:41:28] Um, so you stick it up the nose or near the nose and you pull out the brain through the nose. So this keeps all your cranial shit intact. You can also make a cut in the left side of the body, near the tummy, and you move all the internal organs. You let the internal organs dry. Okay. And you place the lungs, intestines, stomach and liver inside.

Basically a jar. Okay. Huh? You placed the heart back into the body, right? Cause the heart wants what the heart wants. So you've read that the [00:42:00] body with wine and spices, which is exactly how I want to go. Absolutely. 1000% . 

Um, 

CA: [00:42:06] I'm putting that in my living will. 

AE: [00:42:08] So you covered the corpse with salt for 70 days.

Okay. So you jerky the person. After 40 days, you stuff, the body with linen or sand to give it more of a shape. Okay. So at that point, the body's kind of caving in on itself because they've taken all the internal organs out. Right, right. Okay. So stuff it full of paper. Yep. Or linens or salt. So sand, sand, sand. Um, and then after the 70 days is over, you wrap the body from head to toe in bandages.

So that's where we get the mummification literal. Like Scooby-Doo, that's what a mommy is. Um, and then you place in the sarcophagus, which is the type of coffin and that person is laid to rest. 

CA: [00:42:56] Very cool. I have a question. Um, I just read a book [00:43:00] about, um, of course you did death in Egypt. 

AE: [00:43:03] Are you fucking kidding me?

CA: [00:43:04] It's called, uh, the book of two ways and it was written by Jodi Picoult. Oh, I know. I love Jodi

AE: [00:43:12] a white woman 

that proclaims to know everything. Yeah.

CA: [00:43:14] Yeah. But it also does a lot of research. Her son has a degree in Egyptology, which is how she got turned on to this. Wow. Um, and she spent multiple years researching the topics.

Yeah. So I do love her. 

AE: [00:43:26] I do love her now. I know. And I know that you love her. 

CA: [00:43:28] I love her so much. She's Formulaic sometimes, but she's, 

AE: [00:43:32] I mean, she's a millionaire and she's written how many books? He said, Jodi Picoult. 

CA: [00:43:37] I know I did. And then I went to a book reading where she was interviewed by Judy bloom and I did during COVID and yeah, my mom and I had a big glass of wine and listen to Jodi Picoult and Judy bloom.

Talk about books. That sounds fantastic. It was so good. So I'm wondering that book takes place in like middle Egypt [00:44:00] and I think like King Tut's dad is mentioned in the book though. It could be a different King. Oh, so I'm wondering if there was anything about paintings that go inside of the sarcophagus and the research that you did, and if not, it may be different times in Egypt, history.

AE: [00:44:16] There's not, so we'll actually get into his tomb. Oh, cool. Yeah. Okay. Well, and, and, but the short answer is probably not for reasons that will become obvious. So, um, we're going to look at death through the Egyptians eyes during that time. So Egyptians at the time believed in immortality. So death was just kind of like a stepping stone kind of part of the process.

So it wasn't necessarily feared. It was more like, you know, people who adamantly believe that there is something next for them. So it wasn't as much of a big deal. So to ensure that they continued to the afterlife people, worshiped gods during their lives and theoretically, even after. So they were mummified as we [00:45:00] discussed so that the souls could return to the actual body, the physical body giving a life again.

So they put food, water, gold riches. All of those were placed in the tomb because they believe that the person was literally going to pop up and be like, let's go, go.

CA: [00:45:16] I mean, feel free to stick it in my tomb when I die. 

AE: [00:45:18] Exactly. We got to be somewhere, you know, going big into the afterlife or back into this life.

Yeah. And that's why, um, tomb robbing was such a big thing because everybody, I mean, it's basically like burying your wallet or a treasurer. Right. And being like, well, this is where it is. And then people like, of course they're going to fucking steal it. But like also that would create like really bad karma.

CA: [00:45:42] Yeah. I would hate to be that person. And next life they came back. It's a gnat also. Skeeto yeah. 

AE: [00:45:48] I mean, especially like a King 

oh you you're 

CA: [00:45:51] coming back as a tree, right.  

AE: [00:45:54] If you're lucky. Not even an ant, but a tree also reminds me of the mummy. Have you seen the mummy? 

CA: [00:45:59] I've seen [00:46:00] pieces of it? 

 Well, there's 

AE: [00:46:01] like ancient little like, um, scorpion, scorpion, like beetle look and things of your flesh.

CA: [00:46:06] Scarabs?  So my grandmother 

and grandfather went to Egypt a few times. It was their favorite country to travel to nice. And there, they used to have a scarab bracelets that were made out of those, like flying beetle things. So that was actually like on trend jewlery.

AE: [00:46:24] Was it like the, um, like the plague Beatles, like from like that the locusts?

Yeah. I, 

CA: [00:46:31] my grandparents weren't that old. No, I know, but, um, I really don't know much other than scarab bracelets were a thing. 

AE: [00:46:41] Well, I'm pretty sure this was like a cinematic experience. I'm pretty sure it wasn't real. It was flesh-eating beetles. So the journey to the underworld was actually considered to be very dangerous, 

CA: [00:46:53] like going into the Fire Swamp from the Princess Bride?

[00:47:00] AE: [00:46:59] R O U S's everywhere. Side note in Cape town. When I was studying abroad, there are literally huge like rodent looking things and they have teeth. Like they literally look like ROUS's and they live on a table mountain, which is like the big kind of, I mean, it's a big fucking, 

CA: [00:47:16] I don't believe, you know, 

AE: [00:47:17] they're fucking real and they're terrifying.

CA: [00:47:19] It's like the, uh, Chupacabra is that. Yeah, they're fake. I, I don't know what you saw, you are wrong. 

AE: [00:47:26] The Chupacabra fun factororooney has evolved over time. People. I think the Chupacabra is even confused about what it's supposed this point. They are  from the fire swamp probably it's one of the same. Yep.

Okay. So, okay. Your body would travel on a solar bark, which is one of those long kind of gondola looking ships, right? Yeah. You see in a lot of ancient Egyptian, a mix between the Viking and the exactly. Uh, the gondolas and Italy that they still use. Exactly. But like [00:48:00] really important, you know, for Kings.

Oh, okay. So it would pass through the underworld, which had serpents, which also were armed with knives. Which is confusing. 

CA: [00:48:11] I don't like that. They don't have arms, 

AE: [00:48:13] they don't have arms. So I'm just like, it's like a pirate in the teeth kind of wading through the water. 

CA: [00:48:18] Nope 

AE: [00:48:18] thing. 

CA: [00:48:18] At this point, I'm going to have to give that hard pass.

AE: [00:48:22] Uh, not interested. There were also dragons that had five heads, 

CA: [00:48:26] like fluffy, 

AE: [00:48:27] fluffy, exactly fluffy on steroids, fluffy only had three. Like you kind of slice the one off and then it just kind of multiplies from there. 

CA: [00:48:37] Our Greek mythology audience is going to be yelling the name, 

AE: [00:48:41] actual shout out. Right.

CA: [00:48:44] Five headed demon, whose name? I forget. It's fluffy. 

AE: [00:48:47] It's fluffy. Okay. Um, so once you arrived to the land of gods, the person who passed would have to pass through seven Gates, 

CA: [00:48:56] it's like Dante and reverse. 

AE: [00:48:58] Exactly. [00:49:00] Exactly. So, and they would have to say like magical spells at each of the Gates. Okay. So, 

CA: [00:49:06] so alohamora 

AE: [00:49:08] penis erectus.

So these words had to be said like word for word. And if they were able to say it everything, right. Then they would go through into the place of judgment. So you have to audition for your, this is all like, this is it. This is the big audition. But, um, they put like spells spell books and everything like in the tombs as well.

So they were like, I know you haven't studied this because you were a terrible person. So I'm going to put this in there. Right. Just in case you can read, it's like an open book test. 

CA: [00:49:43] It's like the cheat sheet that you had up your sleeve before your history. Right? High school. 

AE: [00:49:50] One time I had something written on my hand and my grandma, my Louisiana grandmother at the time was like visiting. And she's like, what's on your hand. And I was like, nothing. And like ever since then, I've been like, [00:50:00] super, like I can't because mother Theresa just like, was like, what the fuck are you doing? Yeah, yeah. 

CA: [00:50:04] Yeah. So, um, in our school, the cool thing was to write it on the liner for your plastic water bottle. So that I would say that you can read it through the water bottle.

We were next level. Well, if you didn't just plug it in your T-9, we may have done that too. Right. We weren't allowed T-9s anymore.  Or water bottles because we would cheat with them. 

AE: [00:50:27] Well, how the fuck else are you going to calculate on your math tests? 

CA: [00:50:31] Well, I mean, I don't suppose cheating is as big an issue on your math test.

You need more champagne. Is that what you're pointing at? 

AE: [00:50:37] So the gods of death would then perform a ritual called the weighing of the heart. 

CA: [00:50:42] I've heard about this. 

AE: [00:50:43] Oh, you have?

CA: [00:50:44] I think so. 

AE: [00:50:45] Perfect. There'll be a quiz at the end. 

CA: [00:50:47] Can I have a cheat sheet, right? Will you stick a book in my tomb? 

So this 

AE: [00:50:52] is, um, would judge whether the person's.

Earthy deeds were basically like, whether, like, were you a good [00:51:00] person? So this is like the super judgy part. They're like, are you in, are you out you? So the confession portion is next. So how many gods do you think would be appropriate to listen to your confession? Like what, like ballpark, 

CA: [00:51:15] I'm going to have to go with 42.

It's the answer to everything. 

AE: [00:51:18] Are you fucking kidding? Wait, is it for the,

literally 42. 

CA: [00:51:28] Shout out to Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy. Yeah. Okay. Wait,

I just read hitchhiker's guide to the galaxy again and watch the movie not too long ago. And the it's 42. I, so hitchhiker who wrote hitchhiker, whoever wrote it, stole it from the ancient Egyptians. 

AE: [00:51:51] So 42 gods listen to the confessions of the person. Okay. That's fucking hilarious. They listened to your [00:52:00] car and I don't want that many people listening to my confessions.

I don't even want one. I mean, I'm not Catholic. No. I mean, Ray has to hear me complain about everything, but that's pretty much it.

CA: [00:52:09] I talked to my cats and you, yeah, that's about it. 

AE: [00:52:13] So their heart was then placed on a scale and then counterbalanced by feathers, like the light. It's kind of cute that the hardest thing to counterbalance anything.

CA: [00:52:25] Oh, wow. Have you heard this joke? Um, if you'd throw a pound of feathers and a one pound bowling ball off the roof, which one's going to land first 

AE: [00:52:33] there at the same time, because of the same weight. 

CA: [00:52:35] Exactly. 

AE: [00:52:39] Um, so if the weight was equal, like in your joke scenario, the person would achieve immortality. Okay.

Okay. And if not, their heart would be devoured by the goddess I'm at, and this meant that the person would not arrive to the afterlife.

CA: [00:52:56] What if he just got a big heart? I guess big hearts are [00:53:00] modern day. 

AE: [00:53:00] No, everybody's heart was really tiny and inbred and really hungry and just really sad. I know. Have you ever seen the Prince of Egypt?

So when a Pharaoh passed through the test, so when King passed the test, he would have become one of the Gods. We would have become a God and the afterlife. And then, um, he would have gotten back on the boat back on the booze cruise, and he would accompany the gods into the, until you reached paradise and thus everlasting life.

CA: [00:53:30] Amen. Amen. That's sweet. I used to go to church. I used to know wow, Jesus things under his eye. Thanks. That's all I've got. 

AE: [00:53:41] So we know obviously King Tut died. And so now he's like journeyed through this whole path. So the next part of my story is to kind of go through what happened after he died. So there's more to this story.

There's more, there's like two pages more. Wait, are you available? Like, do you need to be somewhere? 

CA: [00:53:56] Um, I think I've got a few more minutes for you. 

AE: [00:53:59] Perfect. [00:54:00] So beginning in 1915, there was beginning like an excavation of the Valley of Kings. So a man named Theodore Carter discovered the actual tomb of Tutankhamun in November of 1922.

Okay. So in his tomb, there were 5,398 items found in the tomb. 

CA: [00:54:24] That would have been my guess. If you had asked how many, 

AE: [00:54:27] I'm not asking any more CA 

because you're full of shit also. Yes, no. I mean, I'm really proud that you guess that was like the best. Think this ever happened to us. So in the tomb, there was the gold sarcophagus or the coffin.

There was also a face mask, which is very on-brand for the time, right? There were Thrones, archery, bows, trumpets furniture, food, hashtag wine, and even a fresh linen underwear. You need a fresh pair. 

CA: [00:54:59] You need a fresh pair [00:55:00] where when you are traveling to meet the gods completely accurate, cannot go with them.

AE: [00:55:04] Yeah. Nothing worse than forgetting your underwear. It's all over from there. 

CA: [00:55:07] Did Your mom ever 

tell you that your underwear needed to be clean every time you left the house in case you died so that the police, if they would, uh, like if you had to go to the hospital and they had to cut off your clothes, Your mom never told you this?

AE: [00:55:23] No, are you 

okay?

CA: [00:55:25] Is a story. I don't, I don't know. 

AE: [00:55:28] Um, I mean, I know your mom and that makes a lot of sense, but 

CA: [00:55:31] yeah, so, uh, King Tut and my mother have a lot in common. 

AE: [00:55:36] I'm sure we'll talk more about your  mother

CA: [00:55:38] which rhymes  with tutenkhamun . 

AE: [00:55:42] So they opened the actual coffin. And they find a really, really intact mummy of King Tut.

So this is back in 1922. So basically they take him out and then there's a long period of time where people are doing research on him, trying to figure out who he is in [00:56:00] 2005. He gets a CT scan. Don't done. 

CA: [00:56:04] Wow. Wait, modern technology solving ancient questions. Exactly. Love that. 

AE: [00:56:11] So the results from the CT scan showed that King had a partially cleft hard palate and confirmed that he did have a mild case.

Scoliosis, 

CA: [00:56:20] if that's it. I mean, he's doing pretty good.

AE: [00:56:22] It's not it. 

CA: [00:56:23] Okay. Nevermind. 

AE: [00:56:25] Um, the scan also showed that his right foot was flat and the, his left foot was clubbed. So these things may have forced him to walk with a cane and considering this, they would have considered him too be disabled. So he would have been a spoonie.

He would have been a spoonie 1000% , not an invisible disabilities spoonie a much more obvious. Exactly. So he would have had, we don't really know why, but part of it, I think we can assume, can be because of the, his genetic situation. Right. He was not dealt great cards as far as his physical, I mean, we know from the previous things I had said earlier as a, he's like a [00:57:00] super tiny guy, he's five, six, and we know that men don't stop growing at age 18 or 19, but that right.

You know, gives us kind of an idea about where he's going to be. Yeah. So, what they noticed about his tomb was that it was really, really small. So a lot of the pharaohs had had really, really large tombs because they'd essentially been building them their entire lives from birth. You imagine like being born and immediately people are like, well, let's start building this too.

That's how I feel about life insurance. I'm like really like, kind of, it's kind of awkward, right? Yeah. 

CA: [00:57:37] Yeah. Um, my dad sells life insurance, but yes, it's very much like buying life insurance for your kids. It's very, yeah, it's kind of concerning, but also important. 

AE: [00:57:50] So, um, we know that his death probably occurred really unexpectedly considering that he was so young.

So one of the theories is that before that [00:58:00] his tomb was able to be completed, that he was buried in the tomb intended for someone else. Okay. Something else was that was like super. Weird. Was that the placement of the mummy was also off the tomb. 

CA: [00:58:14] Was he not facing the right direction? 

AE: [00:58:17] He was facing the right direction.

He was in our, uh, sarcophagus, but basically the, the idea at the time was that the modification was rushed. Oh. So also there was basically the fluid that the, the embalming fluid. Basically was touching his skull, which indicated that when he was buried, he was buried in embalmed life with a, with a fresh wound that was unable to heal before the time that he passed away.

CA: [00:58:47] Are you telling me that King Tel was murdered? Is that it's just become a true crime podcast. 

AE: [00:58:52] We're going to get into it. So the embalming fluid on the, on the skull could have been either something [00:59:00] suspect, or it could be that it was done by an inexperienced, uh, in bomber. 

CA: [00:59:04] Um, you don't bring in the pitch hitter to get to it to bat when the King dies. Listen, listen, you get the best. 

AE: [00:59:12] So what we do know is that the, the tomb was robbed at least twice within months of the initial sealing of the tomb. Bad karma. Yeah. The location of the tomb was lost. Okay. People couldn't find it. They didn't know where it was.

Possibly because of a flood or just because the soil had kind of built up. But, um, they literally, basically, it was like overflowing with soil and they literally built stuff on top of it. Like that seems like we're never going to say it exactly. This is why it was so well-preserved and this is one of the reasons why it's such a famous case.

Not really because he was that cool of a Pharaoh, but because we know much more about him than we do a lot of the other ones, right. There are a lot more clues Scooby-Doo would have been all over this other reason is [01:00:00] for all the things that we don't know about him, mainly housing, he died. I, 

CA: [01:00:04] I am suspecting murder at this point.

AE: [01:00:06] So we're about to get into the theories of his death. 

CA: [01:00:09] Ooh, okay. I'm ready for it. Let me have another sip of wine. Okay. 

Police do so genetic 

AE: [01:00:14] testing of his DNA, which is like so cool, but like the fact that they could do this as just like. I mean, how many thousands of years later? Yeah. Revealed indications of malaria.

CA: [01:00:26] That was the thing back then. 

AE: [01:00:27] Yes. So the team discovered DNA from several strains of the parasite, indicating that he was repeatedly infected with several strains of malaria, man. That sucks. Isn't that fucking terrifying. You think that they would have had better mosquito nets? You would think palace, but also, you know, it's, it's Northern Africa, which is balmy.

Okay. So malaria, very infections may have caused a fatal immune response in [01:01:00] his body. Okay. So that's one theory. 

CA: [01:01:02] Yeah, I'll take it under advisement. What's the next theory? 

AE: [01:01:05] The CT scan also showed that he had suffered a compound leg fracture. 

CA: [01:01:09] Sure. Um, I think that further indicates murder. 

So enbalming substances 

AE: [01:01:15] were present where the fracture was much like the brain indicating that was associated with an open wound and no signs of healing.

So it could have been a leg injury gone wrong. I mean, I suppose it's possible, like he tripped and fell down the steps or has yeah. Oh, Nike, do you remember that? I do like being home from school, like on sick days and watching commercials like watching Maurry and also like the safelite commercial. Yeah. 

CA: [01:01:43] Yeah. I was told not to watch TV when staying home, sick from school. So of course that's the first thing I did. 

AE: [01:01:51] Why wouldn't she let you watch TV? 

CA: [01:01:52] Because if we were home sick, then we needed to be resting, not watching TV. 

AE: [01:01:57] The third, uh, theory is that it was [01:02:00] a chariot accident. Yeah. Like in Prince of Egypt, like racing chariots. Yeah. So it has been suggested that the young King was killed in a chariot accident due to a pattern of crushed, like crushing injuries.

Okay. So including the fact that the front part of his chest wall and ribs were missing when they pulled out his, when they discovered his remains, 

CA: [01:02:21] I think I would have led with this theory. This seems plausible. 

AE: [01:02:25] Um, considering his health, it is unsure whether he would have been riding a chariot all and theories, um, have developed about him falling forward on the wheel of the chariot, crushing his chest.

So instead of him, so they're like, we don't really know if he's going to be riding a chariot if he is, and he would have fallen forward on the wheel of the chariot. Okay. Kind of a sideways fall because the horses in front of you, right. It's kind of a large basket thing. There's two wheels on the side, crushed by the wheel.

CA: [01:02:53] Thank you for that diagram. I feel like I have a much clearer image of how that fall would have had to have taken place. 

AE: [01:02:59] Good. [01:03:00] Um, that's why I'm here. However, the missing ribs were unlikely to be a result of the injury. So we're going back on. This are going back because photographs taken at the conclusion of the excavation in 1926 show that the chest wall was basically pretty much intact.

So, and he was still wearing basically like a beaded collar. And the absence of both were at the 1968 x-ray that this was taken. So someone took off his somebody's funeral garb, somebody ripped yeah. His fucking necklace off and took part of him with him. Can you imagine, can you imagine, the karma? 

CA: [01:03:37] can you imagine walking into someone's house? And they're like, yeah, this is the front of King Tut's rib cage. Oh my God. I know it's hanging on a mantle somewhere. God, plus I have a story for you after this. 

AE: [01:03:48] So basically what they're attributing that to is that there were robbers essentially, that, that smash, that shit and ran. So there's also a murder [01:04:00] by blow to the head theory.

CA: [01:04:01] Uh, I would take that theory for $200.

AE: [01:04:06] So this is theorized as a result of the x-ray would show that two bones fragments, two bone fragments inside the skull. So most people suspect his right hand person. Right, right. His advisor, um, because, um, Ay ended up ruling right after King Tut, highly suspicious, super suspicious also.

Ay Was buried in the super duper elaborate fucking tomb. You, I know I am still alive, still alive, no elaborate tombs for you. So when Ay passed, he was buried in a very elaboration, large tomb, and it basically became a conspiracy theory after that,

CA: [01:04:54] because he was buried in King Tut's first, too. 

AE: [01:04:58] That's exactly right.

So [01:05:00] basically the theory is that he died, basically Ay who, who he was older at the time. So his tomb would have been built. Right. Um, so basically they put King Tut in the small, last fucking grave and they moved. I who only rained for like, I think four years into King Tut's tomb because it was then finished.

Cause it was, it was, it was done. I mean, um, and pretty much, you know, when you're an advisor to. A child it's really easy to, I mean, he was essentially ruling the country anyway. Yeah. I mean, this kid probably had no real, I mean, he had no real father figure at the time, began to think about that too. Right, right.

We're rolling back. Making executive orders first day in office is tough. Yeah. So, so I think that that's probably the most, that's the, that's the theory that I kind of claimed to, but the chariot accident is what a lot of people. Is that it was expected. But however, [01:06:00] because I mean, he was, he was disabled.

I mean, he couldn't walk without a cane, which is what we learned from his tomb is that they found, I mean, besides CT scans, he had canes in his tomb so that he could walk in the afterlife. And I just don't see somebody who is such a tiny person with such possible balancing issues to be able to ride a fucking chariot.

CA: [01:06:22] I mean, I, I suppose it's possible. Cause I assume that's the main form of transportation at some point in time and they weren't just for fun races, the way that I feel like they're portrayed in, uh, movies. I just, I don't expect that he would have driven his own chair. I that's also, it would have been at least a two person chariot.

AE: [01:06:41] So what happened to the other person in the chair yet? Oh, chariot you're golden waves. Look at you. 

CA: [01:06:46] Isn't the churchy song. 

AE: [01:06:48] No its like Gavin Degraw. There's a amen. 

Oh, I know 

CA: [01:06:54] what song you're talking about now. I was thinking there's a church song about riding away on a chariot that I [01:07:00] sang at church camp.

Amen. Amen. Um, but that's the story of, uh, with my track record for being right about things today and always, um, Capricorn, my Capricorn tendencies are showing through, I am going to go ahead and safely say that it was murdered, that he was murdered. And, uh, that Ay/I did it. I'm going to speculate. Oh,

Hey, that was just too fun to. To miss. 

AE: [01:07:31] Exactly it really? No, it really was. 

CA: [01:07:33] Excellent job. Excellent stories. Your storytelling abilities are top notch. Thank you so much. I enjoyed that so much. 

AE: [01:07:42] I have some awards from debate class for storytelling. Do you that I'm a part of the, yeah. Um, I mean, you know, I mean, its in my blood. 

CA: [01:07:49] Way to flex

AE: [01:07:52] thank you so much. So, um, CA how do these, uh, topics intersect? 

CA: [01:07:57] I think that the most obvious intersection of [01:08:00] course, is that King Tut was a disabled King and probably came from a long line of people experiencing disabilities because of the inbreeding that we know happen in Royal lines. Right. So when we're looking at disabilities back then, and today people taking advantage of people with disabilities considering he was murdered by his right-hand man.

AE: [01:08:20] That's a fact you heard it here first or a second folks.

CA: [01:08:25] Um, I think what's interesting about this is that disabilities didn't preclude him from being able to be king. 

AE: [01:08:31] That's a good point. 

CA: [01:08:32] Whereas in today's society, I mean, we've had the disabled president. Yes, we have, we've had a president who was a, uh, yeah, who used a wheelchair.

And I think when he came into office, he may have been an ambulatory wheelchair user. Like not always, but most of the time and him, 

AE: [01:08:51] and this is Roosevelt, we're talking about, they had him standing at the podiums before people got there. Exactly. So that they wouldn't know that he was. Which, [01:09:00] and also media was different this way.

CA: [01:09:01] There was the communication was different as right. There were no cameras doing three 60 on stage either you saw it or he didn't. Right. But even for him to be president, he had to appear as though he didn't have a disability. Right. Exactly. Um, so I think we're getting back into ableism  so I think it's really interesting that the Royal throne or the Pharaoh-dom was passed down to a child who was obviously disabled and I'm sure that people still took advantage of him.

But I'm curious what that would have looked like at that time. 

AE: [01:09:34] Well, also my, my thinking goes towards like, The most important thing is that it's passed to a bloodline as opposed to like a gratified individual, which is just the, how they did things, but it is concerning to know that the entire country and the well-being of those people were trusted from a child's perspective.

CA: [01:09:55] When, you know, we know that the age of consent is, is, you [01:10:00] know, essentially twice the age that this kid was when he, yeah. He hadn't even reached the age of consent when he died. Exactly. I mean, men's brains don't fully develop until they're 25, um, later possibly or late again, I think that we found an interesting overlap and.

In our topics, but I would be interested to learn more about how disabilities were perceived by the ancient Egyptians versus today, and an ancient, like, uh, just in history in general. Um, I think that the kind of monarchy way of ruling was very popular at the time. Right. Bloodline. Right. And regardless of who it is, It's there.

Right? You're right. I'm thinking actually, if we would like to pick up from Egypt and move to Russia for a moment and think about the Romanoffs, the only male born to the, uh, the czar [01:11:00] Alexander I'll have to look up, 

AE: [01:11:03] I'm like looking into your eyes. Like I cannot help you. So, um, 

CA: [01:11:07] um, the, the czar of the Romanov family, um, had all these kids and the only boy was a hemophiliac.

AE: [01:11:15] So he, Oh, the bleeding, the free bleeding makes. So he was, which is not good for quail hunting and raccoon hunting and all the hunting that they do,

CA: [01:11:24] or for being murdered, which is essentially what happened hashtag King tut, 

AE: [01:11:31] Oh my God, you can't be Royal anywhere. You can't be Royal with a disability all the time.

CA: [01:11:37] I just think it's interesting that we're able to draw these parallels from ancient Egypt to. The czar of Russia in like the early 20th century, late 19th century, 

AE: [01:11:49] 20th century, Fox, 

CA: [01:11:50] 20th century Fox to, um, to today. And just how those are an even FDR, like there's so many parallels [01:12:00] redrawn drawn here. Yep.

Absolutely. Look at us talking about disabilities for a whole episode. I love it.

AE: [01:12:06] I absolutely, it's funny because they totally went in together. They absolutely did. I like when this happens around the same wavelength, we totally. All right, guys. Thank you so much for listening. If you support us blink twice, 

CA: [01:12:22] and if you're out there, keep listening.

AE: [01:12:25] Thank you for listening to podcasts without an audience. Find us on social media, at Podwithoutanaud, you can find us on Instagram or Facebook or find us on the web  at podcastwithoutanaudience.com. Shoot us an email podwithoutanaud@gmail.com. Our cover art is created by an actual angel Ashlie Acevedo.

Our music is by Zach Smith and Ted Oliver editing by Jacob Beeson. 

CA: [01:12:50] We hope you enjoyed today's episode and all of our nerdy content, please consider leaving us a five-star review on Apple podcasts or wherever you listen to us today. Oh, and check out our [01:13:00] Patrion for exclusive content and our pasta recipe again. Thanks and keep listening.