Episode 12: LGBTQ+ Adoption and Queer Media - Transcript
CA: [00:00:00] Hi, Teamsters. I'm Carey Ann .
AE: [00:00:16] And I'm Allison and this is podcast without an audience. It is Pride Month! It is Pride month, but
CA: [00:00:23] I'm so excited. I completely skipped over the rest of our intro also. We're uh, What do I say here?
AE: [00:00:29] We pick two
CA: [00:00:30] topics for two friends, pick two topics and find intersections or not.
Okay. Now, can I be excited for pride
AE: [00:00:38] so we can be excited, happy pride month, everybody happy pride month.
CA: [00:00:43] The gayest of them all
AE: [00:00:44] gay is month and we are decked out today.
CA: [00:00:48] We are, you've got our traveling rainbow sweater.
AE: [00:00:51] We do. We fought over the sweater, uh, Gabe's. If you've never been to Gabe's, run don't walk to Gabes.
CA: [00:00:58] This sweater has gone back and forth between us for at least three years now.
AE: [00:01:01] Well, it's also 90 degrees outside and
CA: [00:01:06] I, on the other hand, I'm wearing a rainbow. Crop top
AE: [00:01:09] drop top. Which Is very predictable for you at this point, crop tops are, I feel like becoming your signature.
CA: [00:01:16] Well, so I had this rebel, the other day of a revolution.
Exactly. And everybody has a crop top body and therefore I don't need to get down to any size that I feel like I should or whatever else before we
AE: [00:01:32] start, when we're done. Cause I feel hella cute. Oh. So cute. Even
CA: [00:01:37] if it's just in the mirror before I walk out of the house and then all of a sudden I see pictures of myself, I'm like, whoa.
AE: [00:01:42] Nope. Okay. We're keeping it positive. I feel so
CA: [00:01:45] good. It's pride. You can't be sad during pride. It's
AE: [00:01:49] just the rules don't allow it.
CA: [00:01:51] Yeah. I, so, so I've been thinking a lot about queer community and queer spaces and how much I miss them. Like I miss Greensboro had the cutest little gay bar that was open when we moved here.
And up until I went to grad school, like with the Q close, God, it's been five years. Yeah. I think we went to the closing thing together, but I miss spaces like that, where you could walk in and just know that you're around family and you're around people who feel good and safe and comfortable,
AE: [00:02:24] even if you go there and don't talk to anybody else.
Isn't that like, that's the best thing about like going to a bar is like going there to meet other people and then like, Not even like talking to anybody else other than the people that expectation. Yes. That me too.
CA: [00:02:41] Me too. Another thing I really love about the gay community is like the body positivity and even body neutral conversations that have been going on.
Yeah. Like. I just love how everyone's like bodies are beautiful. You know, we don't need to subscribe to the male gaze or Western beauty principles. Like we can literally wear what feels good and what we love. And it's a space for inclusion. Yeah. And so many ways. And I am so ready last year. Of course all the pride festivals were canceled.
AE: [00:03:14] Right? No. And pride is your absolute favorite thing in the whole wide world
CA: [00:03:18] someone recently asked me what my favorite holiday was. It's pride
AE: [00:03:22] June, which is interesting because in North Carolina, we don't have our pride festivals until August
CA: [00:03:28] or September even
AE: [00:03:29] because it's so damn hot. Also, we can't compete with the other big cities because people tend to like to travel to like New York and California.
Chicago, all those states have their Prides in June.
CA: [00:03:41] Yeah. Well, and they don't like to do any major pride or any like S states they're near each other. They'll try and spread them out over a few months. Right. So I'd be curious to see like when Virginia's, is, cause it's probably yeah. In July or early August would be my guess.
Yeah. Um, and then just depending on weather, Yeah. I think some, uh, cities in Florida have already had their prides. Really? I think so. I saw someone on Instagram post about Jacksonville pride. I could be wrong, but I think that that's what I saw. So I'm ready to drag everyone to pride this year and masked or not.
I will be there. Yeah, probably masked masked. I'm going to go ahead and say that what we'll be masked. So this week we've done something a little different. Yes. We coordinated.
AE: [00:04:30] We coordinated. I'm not going to sing, but we're outfits and our topics. Hey men, which I'm really glad we did because we want it to be really intentional.
And we wanted this to be a celebration.
CA: [00:04:41] Yeah. Absolutely. And we are both queer women, queer CIS women. So we are going to talk as much as we can about all the different voices and people that are part of the queer community. And I'm just super excited to share a topics with you for this week. Me too. All right.
What'd you get me to get into it?
AE: [00:05:01] Let's do it. My body is ready.
CA: [00:05:03] Okay. So I am talking about LGBTQ plus, uh, adoption.
AE: [00:05:09] Yes. Bring on the babies.gaybabies.
CA: [00:05:13] So I'm going to say queer. I really love the word queer. I feel like it's very inclusive. Um, I know that some people dislike the word queer LGBTQ plus is a long acronym, which I also use, but we'll probably still say alphabet mafia.
I do like alphabet mafia. Um, is a really fun way to say it really
AE: [00:05:33] is fun. I'm also going to be using queer. Okay.
CA: [00:05:36] Occasionally I feel like I say gay, but like the gay community, but I feel like that's pretty trans exclusionary sometimes. So queer LGBTQ plus alphabet mafia. We see, oh, we know you're out there.
Keep posting, keep listening. Okay. So this is going to surprise you a little bit, but LGBTQ parenting first began to be talked about around the time of world war II. Really? Yeah, it started like there were murmurings, it wasn't
AE: [00:06:07] around world war II is this because all the men went to war and the women got
CA: [00:06:12] together.
It's also about the time that divorce. Was semi on the rise. I don't think it had really hit its stride yet. It was also about the time that edgy and Ruth began raising buddy junior, well link up there, intersection there, but right after world war II, there were a few cases that went to court for child custody.
So after, you know, people came back from the war, people were getting divorced, several same-sex couples tried to go and get custody so that they could raise kids together. And shockingly, uh, this was denied. The shockingly was incredibly sarcastic, right? This is no surprise to anyone that this was denied.
Sure. Uh, beginning of the 1970s, a few state courts began to uphold custody rights for trans gay and lesbian parents through though the court would frequently require that they not live with their partner or engage in homosexual activities. So in the night from the 1940s, Mid to late 1940s to the 1970s.
They were like, absolutely not. Two you can, have custody
AE: [00:07:18] but don't live together. But yeah, don't live together.
CA: [00:07:20] I don't live together or engage in any activities. So basically you yourself can be queer as
AE: [00:07:27] long as you're not coupled. Right. Oh, okay.
CA: [00:07:31] It's kind of, well, all right. Yeah. It's. It's still not ideal. We got a long way to go.
We're only in the 1970s, um, in 1968. So just pre 1970 bill Jones, who was a gay man, became the first single father to adopt a child in California. And he was one of the very first nationally. I think he was on like the top two or three nationally. It still took another decade for New York to become the first state to not reject the adoption applicants solely because of homosexuality.
So we're starting to get somewhere very slowly but surely right in 1985. Some same-sex couples began to obtain quote unquote, second parent adoptions to secure a children's legal connection to non-biological parents. This is still a thing that is utilized all over the United States and probably the world when both parents can't be on the birth certificate.
Right. So this is really common also for straight couples. Like if you are dating or married to somebody who has a kid and you want to adopt that kid, that's a second parent adoption. Okay. So, and it's a very similar process. Like I think you still have to do. A lot of the home study requirements that you would at least in North Carolina for any other type of adoption.
This is of course, much more common when a parent already has a child prior to being in the relationship. Like if your partner again already has a kid, when they come into the relationship, however, in some states even still, you cannot be on the same birth certificate. So when the baby is born, you still have to file to be a second parent.
Mm. Okay. First same-sex couple first.
AE: [00:09:12] Explain that. Well for exclusively same-sex couple,
CA: [00:09:15] uh, yes, but not specifically in every state. Gotcha. Okay. Fast forwarding a little bit further. In 1997, New Jersey became the first state to allow same-sex couples to adopt jointly.
AE: [00:09:28] Okay. Jersey, Jersey. See you.
CA: [00:09:31] I also am super shocked
AE: [00:09:32] though.
It was Jersey. It's it? That if you were going to say a state, I wouldn't have thought you would say New Jersey, but I'm glad you
CA: [00:09:39] all the twists and turns. Yeah. I'm glad that Jersey's here representing
AE: [00:09:44] also when, so I grew up. In Delaware. I lived in Delaware until I was 10. And when my mom was like, you got to get these kids out of the house, she, she would tell my dad, you got to take him.
And he would drive us to New Jersey to get an ice cream cone. Do you know how far of a drive that is for ice cream help and then, yeah, why? That's my memory of New Jersey? Because my dad was like, look, we can't spend any money. What the hell are we going to do? Put them in the car, go a Jersey Jersey for an ice cream cone.
CA: [00:10:18] I love it. The only thing I really know about Jersey is that you can't pump your own gas. Like they have to do it for you at gas stations. That's the thing up north. Yeah. I've only ever seen that in New Jersey, but I haven't done a lot of exploring in the north. So
AE: [00:10:32] there's that pump my own gas. I would find that weird for somebody to do for me.
Cause I'm fully, I can definitely do it myself.
CA: [00:10:38] Well, and for me, like, I, it seems like it's usually men and I'm fine with that, but I'm also very capable. I want to be able to get out of my car and do my own shit.
AE: [00:10:49] It's also a good life. Like, what, if you never learned how to pump your own gas and then,
CA: [00:10:53] and then you move on to North Carolina where you've got to.
Yeah, no, I'm with you. I also feel like my topic this week is a lot of facts and figures. Um, I do have statistics about, or I do have, um, Information about children who are adopted by same-sex couples, but I really wanted to like give some of this background. Perfect, because we talk so much about marriage equality, which was a huge thing, but we're still fighting for our adoption rights as queer individuals.
So the background information is really relevant. Sure. It's called history. Yeah. Jumping all over the place today. The American civil liberties union produced a quote overview of lesbian and gay parenting adoption and foster care pamphlet in 1999. Their research and key findings include that there's no evidence to suggest that lesbians and gay men are unfit to be parents.
Period. I hate that they had to say it right. Number two. Good parenting is not influenced. Bisexual orientation also shocking. I know three, there is no evidence to suggest that children of lesbian and gay parents are less intelligent suffer from more problems are less popular or have lower self-esteem duh.
And, uh, there were several others, but here's one that I really enjoyed. Children tend to grow up as happy, healthy, and well adjusted as the children of same of different sex parents.
AE: [00:12:20] Yeah, that's true. Yeah. They're just kids being kids.
CA: [00:12:23] Um, I also want to share with you from family equality.org, they gave a really beautiful little blurb about strength, community and LGBT communities.
So I'm going to read some of that to you really quickly. LGBTQ parents have long come together to support each other as well as to contribute to the broader LGBTQ rights movement. In 1956, the pioneering San Francisco lesbian organization, daughters of Bilitis. Sure held the first known discussion groups on lesbian motherhood.
The first lesbian mothers activist group, the lesbian mothers union formed in the same area around 15 years later later, several lesbian mothers and friends in Seattle formed the lesbian mothers national defense fund to help those with custody disputes, other groups for mothers and gay fathers formed in other cities.
In 1977, several lawyers began the lesbian rights project, which helped both lesbian moms and gay dads and involved into the national center for lesbian rights, still helping LGBTQ parents and others across the spectrum. Today. There's also a gay fathers coalition, which ultimately became the family equality council, the national organization for LGBTQ parents, just so many incredible activist groups, resources, resources, and supports by 1990, lesbian and gay parents have become visible enough for Newsweek to coin the term in reporting that quote, a new generation of gay parents has produced the first ever Gayby boom Gayby boom, little babies, little loved by gays,
AE: [00:14:02] loved by all and all.
I love that also, just to kind of piggyback of something you had said was how much I appreciate large cities who have really set standards and have really like, started the fight for all kinds of issues, because we're from the south, we are from North Carolina, which is beautiful and I love it here.
However, we're not going to be starting any type of revolution. I mean,
CA: [00:14:32] we have, we have a few grassroots programs here in North Carolina, but they are doing fairly well. Song is one that comes to mind southerners on new ground, which does a lot of work in activism specifically around race, but any form of intersectionality.
Sure. So,
AE: [00:14:50] but I, you know, and I'm referring to, you know, like California and New York specifically where they have the. yeah. I mean, you know, all of the fighting yeah.
CA: [00:15:04] And very much appreciated. And I think that that also speaks to why discrimination is still so prevalent in the south versus like traveling to New York.
If you're holding hands, you know, was
AE: [00:15:18] specifically in the city.
CA: [00:15:19] Right. Upstate, right, right. But in, I feel more comfortable in larger cities. And I think that that's why when I'm traveling, I enjoy being in larger cities because they do tend to be a little bit more aware and accepting.
AE: [00:15:33] It's such a safety thing too.
I mean, how many times have you walked down the street holding hands and feel like you have to drop your hand? Oh,
CA: [00:15:41] safety purposes more times than I can count. And that's just looking at, you know, two CIS white women or, you know, um, or to CIS women in general. I think that it complicate, it becomes even more complicated when you look at trans individuals, interracial couples, um, and the south, it's still a big thing in, in Greensboro and the town that I'm from.
Um, it, you just don't feel safe sometimes. Like I. To this day, we'll probably not walk around my hometown holding anyone's hands. Yeah. I'm sorry. Well, I mean, it's just a reality, like there were working on it in some places more progressively and proactively than others. Yeah. And part of our
AE: [00:16:28] conversation today, we're not trying to be, you know, we're not trying to bring the mood down, but all of these things are super important to discuss.
Right. We can't address just the happy, like we're proud to be us conversation without discussing the other side of that.
CA: [00:16:44] Yeah, absolutely. Um, so let's start with the proud of half of our country information that I have to share with you now. I'm ready.
AE: [00:16:54] Dolly's ready too. Hi Dolly. Hi, she came just in time.
So
CA: [00:16:59] at this time, 27 states, one territory and DC has statutes and regulations that prohibit discrimination and adoption based on sexual orientation and gender identity. Whoop, is that? Hell Yes. Is that, are we one of those states? We are not, of course, of course we are not. But that's over half like 27.
Yeah. That's incredible. Uh, we have so much further to go.
AE: [00:17:26] You I'm sorry. I'm going to interrupt you all please. So you work in adoption. Could, could you adopt out of state and then bring that child across state lines?
CA: [00:17:37] Yes, you could. Okay. Yeah. So really what we're looking at at this point is not whether or not the adoption is legal, because leave because yeah.
AE: [00:17:47] So this is just discriminating specifically on usually
CA: [00:17:51] for licensing purposes. Like, can you be licensed by a specific agency in order to adopt. So say you want to adopt from a private foster care agency or a nonprofit foster agency or wherever. Okay. Can they discriminate against you? Because you're in the same sex relationship, right?
Got it. Does that make sense? Yes. Okay. Mom board. Got it. Got it. Got it. Yeah. There are 19 states and three territories that do not explicitly state protections against discrimination and adoption based on orientation or gender identity. The bad news is there are still 11 states that permit state-licensed child welfare agencies to refuse to place and provide services to children and families, including LGBTQ people and same-sex couples.
So even if you were to get licensed, it's still legal. And these 11 states for them to not place a child with you, even if you want to adopt. And have been licensed. They can do this. If it quote unquote conflicts with their religious beliefs,
AE: [00:18:57] fuck that,
CA: [00:18:59] you know, and
AE: [00:19:00] though how is that that's unconstitutional?
CA: [00:19:03] I believe so too. And separation of church and state separate them,
AE: [00:19:09] get it over there.
CA: [00:19:10] And I CA I have seen the, or workings of foster care and adoption and, and a way that is much more intimate than I'd ever hoped. And. I have to believe that there is no one out there who would rather kids languish in foster care than be loved by two healthy parents.
Like two moms, two dads, two non-binary parents. Than none.
AE: [00:19:37] I cannot believe we're still having this conversation.
CA: [00:19:40] I know, I know blows my fucking mind
AE: [00:19:43] may tell how small minded people are.
CA: [00:19:46] So which of the three categories would you feel like North Carolina falls under?
AE: [00:19:50] I'm going to say the wrong thing. Why don't you just tell me
CA: [00:19:53] I do not have any explicit protections.
So where in like the second category, right? We don't have anything that openly says you may discriminate. We also don't have anything that says you.
AE: [00:20:06] We love a gray area.
CA: [00:20:08] However, every state around us still allows discrimination against LGBT families and adoption, including Virginia, South Carolina, Tennessee, Alabama, Michigan, Mississippi, North Dakota, South Dakota, Kansas, Oklahoma, and Texas.
AE: [00:20:29] Oh, so what's crazy to me is that Arkansas, uh, passed, uh, marriage equality before it went federal. That blew my mind. I was like way to go. Arkansas
CA: [00:20:42] North Carolina did too. Right. North Carolina passed it in October. It became federal and July, June, June 26th. I'm proud of us in some ways. Got a long way to go.
Do you remember where you were? Oh, we're going to get there and justice let's yes, I do remember where I was. I was working.
AE: [00:21:02] Um, I was working too.
CA: [00:21:04] We had just graduated. Uh, two years before, a year before it was 2015. So we graduated in 2013. I was working. My first job was down in the dungeon. And one of my coworkers who was just super supportive and phenomenal, came up and told me the news and gave me this huge hug.
Um, she was the only person I think I was out to at work at that time, other than my boss, um, who my mom outed me to when I was younger. Um, but yeah, so I was working, I got a hug. I went home and celebrated with my girlfriend at the time.
AE: [00:21:43] What about? Yeah. So I was also working at one of the saddest jobs. I was working in a call center, literally in a basement.
Would you just said you were in a base?
CA: [00:21:53] Yeah, I was working in a basement of a textile mill. That was like a, a refurbished textile mill. I was not working at a textile mill.
AE: [00:22:01] I was working in a basement basically of a strip mall in a call center. And I remember seeing it come across my phone and just like being alone in a room and like turning and like, there was nobody to like celebrate with.
I was like, oh my God. Just like, I, I remember getting like teary-eyed and being like, this is fucking huge. Yeah. It was just like, I will never forget. I will just never forget that.
CA: [00:22:30] Yeah. And there've been so many momentous things to have happened in our lifetime, but June 26. Just really stands out as being a huge day for so many people, because for a long while, and even now they still talk about overturning it from time to time, usually around elections, it feels like a hot topic for Republicans.
AE: [00:22:53] It's interesting. I feel like it was obviously more of like a, uh, a conversation in the early 2000's then, you know, I just, whatever you lost. Sorry about it. Yeah, we're happy. We're here.
CA: [00:23:09] They're still talking about turning over Roe V. Wade. Like they're going to be talking about turning over gay marriage for years
AE: [00:23:16] planned parenthood texts me all the time.
Stress down.
CA: [00:23:22] So I'm March. Yeah. You first 2016. So a little less than a year later, a federal district court struck down Mississippi's ban on allowing same-sex couples to adopt children. And this was the last of all 50 states to still have a remaining ban. So it is now legal to adopt as a same-sex couple in all 50 states.
It's just whether or not you can find an agency to license in place, kids with you and the, uh, 11 states that still have discrimination laws. Right? However, internationally, there are still some issues, the Hague, which is a, basically a treaty that all these countries signed to permit international adoption does ban, uh, same-sex couples from adopting and a lot of other countries really struggle with it.
Okay. Um, so legally you cannot adopt internationally. As a queer person really, or as a queer couple, but you could theoretically individually so long as you don't tell anybody, which is, oh, great. Yeah.
AE: [00:24:30] Go back into the closet. That's exactly
CA: [00:24:32] crazy. Every picture you've ever taken with anyone you've loved so that you can love a kid.
AE: [00:24:39] Wow. You can't adopt internationally.
CA: [00:24:42] No, not for any country that's associated with the Hague, which is the majority, the, all the ones that have like the approved adoption practices. I do know a few queer people who have adopted internationally and it's kind of one of those things. We just don't talk about it because legally, I shouldn't know, you know, like legally we're not supposed to be able to do this thing and you don't want to call more attention to it.
So you just kind of turn and okay.
AE: [00:25:12] Like don't ask, don't tell kind of it sucks.
CA: [00:25:15] Bullshit. Uh, so let's talk a little bit about what makes same sex couples, different straight couples or different sex couples in terms of having kids, because this is also an important conversation. Same-sex couples often have to use expensive fertility treatments, um, to physically have children free the child, not free.
It's super expensive, which means that often couples who go this route are wealthier a little older and are super intentional about becoming parents, which means that, uh, the child abuse rates and same-sex households is a lot lower than it is in different sex households. Um, there's also less. Same-sex couples out there with kids.
So that might skew the statistics a little bit when I first came out because you know, coming out stories, my parents expressed a lot of fears and concerns around safety and acceptance and like people judging me. But finally, my mom got to the point of asking me about kids and assuming that kids were kind of off the table once I came out.
So I told her that theoretically, there could now be up to two uteruses in my relationship domain. My chances. Of ever having kids given, I want to adopt, like adoption has always been my goal, but I just think that people assume adoption is the only way. And it's not fertility treatments, sperm banks are also not the only way.
Surrogacy is not the only way for men to have kids or for gay men to have kids. And I don't want to, you know, go into every possibility here, but just know that there are many, and you don't want to make any assumptions when you're meeting oh, queer family.
AE: [00:27:01] So something that we need to keep in mind is that people should never give advice for gray pregnancy.
Adoption childbirth. Any of that stuff everybody's situation is so incredibly different. And I think the first thing that people want to do is insert their own opinions. Maybe they're trying to be helpful. Maybe they can't fucking help themselves. And I think we all need to try to, you know, stay back a little bit.
Maybe keep your fucking feelings to your self.
CA: [00:27:34] If you don't want to support gay marriage, don't marry marriage. It's called marriage. It's called marriage. Thank you anytime. Yeah. You make a great point. As of the 2000 census, there are approximately 594,000 same sex partner households in the United States and children living in approximately 27% of those households.
Okay. Which felt like a small number to me. But we have to remember that this is a almost 20 years ago and a lot has changed B it's a hard, it's hard to get an accurate count because a lot of people aren't open about their sexual orientation or gender identity, because they don't feel safe. There's still fears of discrimination, loss of employment, loss of custody.
Well,
AE: [00:28:22] are those like, so those were just like people like long-term partners living together. Like what's we don't really know.
CA: [00:28:30] Yeah. Just as same-sex partner household. Okay. So then 10 years later in the 2010 census. Data, they asked about same-sex households with children. So at that time, 115,064 same-sex households were reported and approximately 18,400 of them are about 6% was raising at least one adopted child with 11% of those being gay male couples.
Okay. So it sounds to me like gay male couples are adopting more kids, at least the way that I interpreted that specific piece of data, which kind of makes sense. Yeah. Yeah. In 2011, about 2 million children in the U S were being raised by LGBT. Parents who could not establish legal guardianship or legal relationship with both parents.
So they assume, or they've figured out a way to guesstimate. Um, that 2 million children are living in a same sex household with one or more of their parents not being legally tied to them because of lack of access to adoption. Second parent adoption can be really expensive. It's not like adopting from foster care where a lot of it's covered.
So there are some issues with adoption and keeping it kids secure and safe. Also, it's such a long process.
AE: [00:29:50] Like I can very well see it being one of those things that is like, I mean, not everybody has the ability to take the days off of work to be able to go to
CA: [00:30:00] all the meetings and
AE: [00:30:02] court stuff and the signing items.
And I don't know what goes into it, but yeah, well it's even change their fucking last names when they get married for years, because it's such a pain.
CA: [00:30:15] Right. So, and there are some ways around this, like my dad's in to financial planning. And one of the things that he was talking about even prior to 2015, was how do you support parents who are same-sex couples who have kids, um, in terms of making sure that even if they're not legally connected to each other, If something happens to one, the other and the kid is taken care of.
So people care, it's just a matter of getting it so connected within our system. And so much a part of our system that it becomes the first thought and not the last, because if you're trying to adopt a kid and, or your partner is trying to adopt a kid and something happens to you before the adoption's finalized, like what could potentially happen to that kid if you don't have supportive family members?
I mean, when you hear tragic stories all the time, at least I do,
AE: [00:31:10] I was going to say, I
CA: [00:31:12] hear tragic stories all the time. So there's research to suggest that there really isn't much difference in outcomes for kids in same-sex versus different sex households in terms of sexual orientation, behaviors, emotional functioning, Gender identity, et cetera.
One study did report that children and gay and lesbian households are more likely to talk about. Emotionally difficult topics are more resilient, compassionate, and tolerant, which I love that statistic. And I just, so I kind of laughed at the first one with there's no difference in sexual orientation.
Like assuming that who, if your parents are gay, that you will be gay is such a fallacy. I mean, my parents are straight
AE: [00:31:58] straight.
CA: [00:31:58] People have gay kids all the time, but I love that LGBT parents intentionally or unintentionally are raising their children to be able to talk about emotionally difficult topics and raising their kids too.
Be tolerant and compassionate towards others because that's what we need.
AE: [00:32:17] And I think, I think the new generation coming up in general is going to be so much more open-minded. Oh, absolutely. I think just as a society, realizing that we don't have the answers, like we, we have beliefs, they will continue to change.
But what we do like at the foundation needs to be love and equality.
CA: [00:32:39] Put that on a t-shirt cross-stitch it on a pillow. The foundation needs to be love and equality. I love that. Um, I would like to take a minute to link professional organizations that support gay and lesbian family adoption, and those include the child welfare league of.
America, the American psychiatric association, the American psychological association, the American academy of pediatrics and a group that I'm a part of the national association of social workers. So if you need support, if you need resources, these are great places to go for LGBTQ queer adoption. But also if you have other resources or suggestions, shoot us an email.
Like I am so happy to add like updates at the end of some of our upcoming episodes and say, Hey, we just heard about this great resource, go check it out. Email us podwithoutanaud@gmail.com or contact us slide into our DMS. Let us know.
AE: [00:33:42] All right. That is fantastic. Uh, I mean, this episode is giving me life right now.
CA: [00:33:49] I know, I love talking about this. I
AE: [00:33:52] did not realize like how much I needed it. Yeah. Wow. Last year was horrible. No pride, no being around other people that are like you like yeah. You know, it's interesting. We've talked about this before that like the queer community is often like there's gay bars, but that's it.
And that's, those are the resources. Those are, those are the, the, the watering holes that we have to. Go to, and so like queer youth have a really hard time finding, you know, communities and, and, and places of support sometimes. But, you know, even like being without those queer spaces over the past year, like, I hadn't, I hadn't even, I'm realizing now how much I'm so excited for this year to be able to be back into
CA: [00:34:44] those spaces.
I know me too, it's you? You're right. You and I have talked about it before I crave community and especially queer community, you and I being queer women who are also who are also very straight passing, it's easy to feel like we don't get seen often. And so having people who see us and who honor all those different aspects of who we are and who can relate to those different struggles, it's so important.
Yeah. Um, and you don't realize it until it's been deprived from you. When I was in grad school, all of my research was around lesbian adoption and queer adoption. Yeah. And there was a period of time. I was living in a house with three other lesbians and most of the people I went to school with were queer.
Um, and of course I was living in DC at the time, which is a very queer city. And I would forget occasionally that straight was a thing. Like it was just, everyone was about love and joy and it didn't matter who your partner was. Right.
AE: [00:35:49] Like, and straight people can still be about love and joy.
CA: [00:35:52] Oh, absolutely.
Absolutely. But like someone would say something, I would just automatically assume that it was a queer person and would have to be reminded that, right. You know, there are people exist
AE: [00:36:04] outside your bubble. And I also, I want to personally speak to queer people or, um, you know, bisexual people who identify as bisexual or pansexual who are in straight appearing relationships or who are married or dating people of the opposite gender, you know, that you're still validated.
CA: [00:36:25] And I'm glad you said that.
AE: [00:36:26] Yeah. I think that's really important.
CA: [00:36:28] It is really important that I know it's hard. Right.
AE: [00:36:31] It's interesting. You know, my fiance is a CIS man. He's he is the perfect example of what a supporting partner should be just accepting of, of your person. Yeah. Yeah. Which is so sad that we even have to fucking say that.
But
CA: [00:36:49] it's something that we like to say. Well, and also to other people who are out there who wonder what their identity is. Oh yeah. In relation to a partner. Sure. Like you are who you are, regardless of who you date, not because of who you date. Other
AE: [00:37:05] people are always going to try to define you and puts you in that fucking box.
You don't you do you, boo. No way. Yeah. Do not let them have that power over you. Find your truth,
CA: [00:37:17] live your truth.
AE: [00:37:18] Amen.
CA: [00:37:19] Don't be a Dick D-bad. That's the more, this whole thing. That's right. I am super excited for your topic.
AE: [00:37:26] Me too, because I am talking about LGBTQ plus community representation in the media, media, media.
I love
CA: [00:37:37] this. I, so there's a whole section on LGBT adoption in the media that I really wanted to cover, but I did want to coordinate so much that there would be right. Like, I want you to have your moment.
AE: [00:37:49] So I don't specifically talk about, I don't talk, frankly. I don't talk about it at all. So feel free to enter your call at any time you don't talk about the Fosters.
I don't well, they are mentioned briefly. Okay. So
CA: [00:38:01] we'll talk about that except, okay. We can talk about when we get to the fosters
AE: [00:38:06] buckle up, because this it's a, it's a ride
CA: [00:38:08] here. I'm ready.
AE: [00:38:09] Butter cup. Let's go. Okay. So I'm also going to be using the term queer throughout, and here we go. All right. So I'm going to be covering the.
Queer representation in film and TV. I'm not going to be talking about print or music or other types of media.
CA: [00:38:28] That's a whole other, we'll save that for next June,
AE: [00:38:31] which will just be about lady Gaga,
CA: [00:38:33] the music of our people, KD Lang, and Indigo girls. Yep. Who else has Teagan and Sara, I can't, I just love the music of our people
AE: [00:38:43] forward to
CA: [00:38:43] girl in red, King Princess.
Okay. I'm done.
AE: [00:38:48] So what is queer media? And I do want to shout out, uh, media smarts, which is, uh, Canada's center for digital and media literacy for such comprehensive articles on this topic. It's where I got like 90% of my oh, cool information from super grateful plastic resources sponsored by sponsored by.
CA: [00:39:11] So
AE: [00:39:12] Harry M Benshaw and Sean Griffin wrote in their book queer cinema, the film reader about three general criteria for identifying content as queer. The first being has the media product been created by queer people. Great question. Great question. The other. Does the media product rely on quote, queer aesthetics?
Is it concerned with queer issues? That's number two, I love this. And the third is, has the media product been widely embraced by the queer kids?
CA: [00:39:46] I love these three categories and I feel like I can already think of movies that fall or TV shows that fall under each one. Exactly. But coming up with one that falls under all three is really a task.
AE: [00:40:00] Absolutely. So queer media doesn't necessarily rely on queer people to be the intended audience
CA: [00:40:08] like queer eye for or queer eye. Yeah. Queer eye. Yeah. It was not intended for queer people as much as it was.
AE: [00:40:16] We're literally going to get to that example here. Oh Good. Later in the narrative. So some very obvious examples of otherwise heterosexual mainstream media that have been embraced by some groups within the queer community are television programs such as Xena Warrior Princess.
CA: [00:40:36] I
AE: [00:40:36] love
CA: [00:40:37] Xenas. So much. I know you do. It's one of my comfort shows
AE: [00:40:41] prob well, I can think of one reason. Um, the, her name is .
CA: [00:40:46] I'm sorry. Continue the golden girls. Oh, obviously,
AE: [00:40:50] uh, films such as the wizard of Oz or Rocky horror picture show. Yes. And musical acts such as Dolly. Pardon?
CA: [00:40:59] We love a queen
AE: [00:41:00] and more recently lady Gaga,
CA: [00:41:03] your girl.
My girl, girl, get your girl a love merge. I'll get your girl.
AE: [00:41:12] So many artists and cultural texts are adopted for their direct campaigning of queer rights, such as Daniel Radcliffe and Harry Potter. He's very much an advocate,
CA: [00:41:23] right. Anne Hathaway is one that comes to mind. I remember she spoke at, uh, I think it was the human rights campaign though.
It could have been glad or something like that. Yeah.
AE: [00:41:32] Also, Kathy Griffin. Oh, yeah. Also as well. Also other films like high school musical, that's a big one too. Like a lot of queer youth really kind of clung to that. Um, there's a character named Ryan, Ryan Evans, I'm aware. Okay. So he was one of those characters who wasn't overtly.
Like they didn't place him as a gay character, but he was gay, coded. He was gay coded exactly or queer coded. And this includes elements of body, language, vocabulary, dress, vocal, inflection, and various other aspects that are peripheral to sexual orientation. And that happens a lot where they, they intentionally code somebody without saying it.
But other times it's more intentional. So let's talk about films specifically, please. Please.
CA: [00:42:24] Do you talk about fried green tomatoes? Cause if not, coding would be a great time to talk about fried green tomatoes.
AE: [00:42:29] No, I don't bring it up because I think we talk about it a lot, so I didn't place it. Cause I knew we would talk about it anyway.
CA: [00:42:35] Well, I just want to, so fried green tomatoes of course is our favorite movie as best friends and the Idgy and Ruth never come out as being queer. In fact, it's assumed that they will both at some point marry men, um, which is a whole thing, but Idgy is so well queer coded, I mean, Ruth too, to a lesser extent,
AE: [00:43:01] her pants.
CA: [00:43:03] But it's impossible to watch the movie as a queer person and not see all the ways that Idgy and Ruth were queer coded, which is so interesting. And I wonder to straight people who don't know much about queer coding, if they also come off as being queer or just like. Roommates.
AE: [00:43:22] Oh, the roommate. So roommate trope, roommates that every
CA: [00:43:26] Christmas, every historian ever was like, they were really good friends.
They
AE: [00:43:29] were best I've lived together that never married anybody else. It's so interesting.
CA: [00:43:36] Yeah. I think it's a good example of coding was my
AE: [00:43:40] point. I wouldn't bet that people who are listening to this now, probably not our listeners, but other people who have like seen fried green tomatoes yeah. Would be like what?
They're gay. Whoa.
CA: [00:43:54] I mean,
AE: [00:43:54] I think they would have no idea. Really a lingering, oh, a pause can mean a thousand things.
CA: [00:44:00] That's no, a pausing queer culture mean? Yeah. Oh, you really want to hold your hands, getting down. Yeah. Like you don't stick your hand in a beehive for someone that you are not super in love with.
AE: [00:44:12] Is it wrong, what I did. Was not wrong
Idgy. No, she says it's a bad one. She's like gimme a compliment.
CA: [00:44:25] Okay. You're just a bee charmer, Idgy Threadgoode.
AE: [00:44:28] That's what you are. That's where you are a bee charmer.
CA: [00:44:34] Well,
AE: [00:44:35] so many controversies over Hollywood's negative depictions of homosexuality have focused on how such portrayals, marginalize and silence queer people in the book.
The celluloid closet, Vito Russell analyzes the representation of gay and lesbians in Hollywood films from the 1890s to the 1980s and argues that Hollywood's portrayal of lesbians and gay men have often been cruel and homophobic during that period, gay and lesbian characters were defined by their sexual orientation and lacked any complex character
CA: [00:45:10] development.
I was reading an article or watching a TikTok probably both, probably
AE: [00:45:16] the TikTok you don't read anymore. Now that Tik TOK is a thing,
CA: [00:45:20] but I was absorbing some content about how so many Disney villains are coded as being queer. Like think Hades is from, um, Hercules, Hercules. Who's another good one.
Who's coded as queer, like scar could theoretically be coded queer. Like he's like playing with the mouse and the very.
AE: [00:45:42] Oh, he's got the wrist thing. You're going to code them as queer because he's playing with the mouse.
CA: [00:45:46] Well, so there's like all these subtle hints. And the reason is that apparently historically queer characters were not allowed in children's films.
And there was such a negative connotation associated with being queer that they would code the villains as being queer, which is just fascinating to me. And I wonder if that's the reason that so many queer women really love Ursula.
AE: [00:46:09] Okay. Who doesn't love Ursula
CA: [00:46:11] Right. I mean, I love her,
AE: [00:46:13] but the let's identify her for just a second.
Jeez. Do you know
CA: [00:46:18] how many shows I've been to with Ursula as a drag queen? Yeah, at least five. Yeah. Only when
AE: [00:46:24] Cruella Deville. So I looked at Disney specifically because I was actually going to cover Disney. So the most, the most example that I got was, um, in the new Belle and the Buffalo Gaston's right-hand man is the first, like supposedly overtly gay character in Disney history.
Although it's like, You blink and you miss it.
CA: [00:46:47] Yeah. Yeah. Um, but I did love Le Fou is his name. Uh, let's get you in the movie was phenomenal. And he did a good job of like flirting, but only so mildly that kids would probably mess it, but also supposed to be a queer character in some cannon. I don't know that Disney was intentional about it, but in Frozen two, she has like a little girl interest.
It seems so. It's never confirmed. Of course. It's like
AE: [00:47:13] afterwards, they're like, you're like Dumbledore is gay. What?
CA: [00:47:17] Oh, that's a TERF trying to cover her ass.
AE: [00:47:19] Exactly. That's totally an afterthought. Cool. Good talk in Hollywood's early years from the 1890s and 1930s, homosexuality was often presented as an object of humor.
The archetype of the quote sissy was popular at the time and we see this throughout. Oh yeah. Even today. Like I love friends. I think it's awesome. They're last couple seasons have some really like homophobic humor. Yeah. It came out of fucking nowhere. Even when one of the creators is gay.
CA: [00:47:57] Well think of will and grace, where Jack is flamboyant.
He's also the comedic relief I mean the whole show is a comedy, but right.
AE: [00:48:05] But there's no. So I actually get into this in one part, but I'm going to skip ahead with will and grace specifically, the show in general has gay characters, but they're not romantic. So there are two best friends that aren't dating.
Right? Right. They're also like juxtapose with these very strong female characters, which are, you know, one of the, you know, they're big, big characters, right? It's not a love story. It's not about like gay relationships necessarily. It's about friendship. Right. So, you know, that's how they were able to kind of get away with it at the time.
Yeah. I hate to say get away with it. Cause it sounds so icky to me. I know.
CA: [00:48:46] No I'm aware. Okay. But I mean, we got to call a spade, a spade,
AE: [00:48:50] a spade, David Spade. It's a shovel. To the consumer, the sissy was not a threatening representation of homosexuality because it occupied middle ground between masculinity and femininity.
Yeah. So essentially it was palatable from the 1930s to the 1950s religious and women's groups to criticize Hollywood for contributing to them,
CA: [00:49:18] not in mortality, not vampires, but the gays.
AE: [00:49:24] So this goes back to your earlier point, as a result, the industry contributed to the Hays code, which is a system of self-censorship that among other things affected the portrayal of homosexuality.
Yes, yes, yes. Yes. So during these years, films could not feature overtly gay characters. So homosexuality was coded to a character's mannerisms and behaviors, this strict code, and I'm doing this on Erika air quotes. I mean, they really did stick to it because it was it's all about the money. It's always all about the bottom line, right?
Because that
CA: [00:50:00] capitalism,
AE: [00:50:01] the code was loosened in the sixties and seventies, which also saw like, that was a part of when there was a huge equal rights women's rights, marriage, equality, movement. And so at that time, gay and lesbian characters were becoming more visible and vocal, um, and public life. So they were being out in real life.
However, the representation in films were becoming increasingly homophobic, right? Yeah. At this time, gay characters were often represented as being dangerous, violent, predatory, or suicidal, such as films like the children's hour and 1961, the boys in the band in 1970 midnight express in 1978 and vanishing point in 1971,
CA: [00:50:50] I have not seen a single one of those movies.
AE: [00:50:53] Think about it. People were so stranger danger was coming, coming about. So people were missing. Representing pedophiles for homosexuals and for gay men specifically. So that was, there was just, it was a blob. It was a big mess. There wasn't representation in the media. People probably didn't know many out people at the time.
So it's like this theory that's there, but like,
CA: [00:51:21] Yeah, but you don't realize that your next door neighbor is also one of, you know, the
AE: [00:51:26] mafia, right. But since the 1990s, Hollywood has improved in their portrayal, for sure. Oh, a thousand percent. There are no, no longer predatory, but like the popularity of films, like the bird cage.
Oh, I loved the bird. And that film demonstrates the audiences can and do enjoy films with gay and lesbian characters and they can make you a fuck ton of money and Robin Williams
CA: [00:51:54] and Robin Williams.
AE: [00:51:56] It is so good.
CA: [00:51:57] Oh, you know what be a fun challenge for the month of June is to watch as many queer media as possible.
Like if you guys want to participate in this, I think I will. Why don't you and I like start posting all the queer media we consume and I know June, and then. Any of you guys want to join in? Yeah. Share with us. What's had a group birdcage night.
AE: [00:52:21] I love that. I have it on VHS.
CA: [00:52:24] Of course you do.
I
AE: [00:52:26] only own movies. I love on VHS. It's
CA: [00:52:29] so good. I didn't see the bird cage until is it the bird cage or just bird cage? The bird cage. Okay. Yeah. I didn't see it. It's the club, right, right. Until I was an adult. So I feel like I was super late to the game, but it's
so good. Oh God Ray and I watch it all the time. It's so good.
AE: [00:52:49] Despite these advantages, the industry is still cautious in its portrayal of gay themes, characters, and expressions, right. With Hollywood films designed to appeal to a large audience. Like as large as possible, right? In theory, producers often feel like you can't make your movie too gay because then you're marginalizing some of your audience.
Possibly my brain went to no, you can't make it to gay. Like I will consume the gayest thing possible. So
in 2005, Brokeback mountain grossed, over $178 million gay girl, proving that movies portraying gay characters can be super lucrative. Also that movie is so
CA: [00:53:38] beautiful and tragic. Right? Super tragic. So like, I mean, my heart couldn't handle watching that one again.
The film. Oh
AE: [00:53:46] my God. We ha we were all alone. When's the last time you saw it?
CA: [00:53:49] Oh my God.
AE: [00:53:50] Four years ago. Oh my God. What are you doing? What am I doing? It used to be on your regular movie.
CA: [00:53:57] Watching lists, not deviate. The fact that I'm even considering watching. It's beautiful. I loved it. I have, I have had so much anxiety.
Like we just came out of mental health. May. Uh, I have had so much anxiety for the past year that I am strictly on a comfort show and comfort movie. Okay. That's what I need. I need people to bring me out of my comfort zone.
AE: [00:54:22] But you're absolutely right, because the film, it did receive mixed reactions like within the queer community, because the movie is essentially about these guys, like straight acting that are in the closet, they're both in hetero relationships and they barely, so this is a quote, I'm just going to say the quote quote that said the film has received mixed reviews from within the queer communities on the grounds that a movie about quote, straight acting gay men who barely have sex and who cannot accept their own desires as hardly a gay movie at all end quote.
CA: [00:55:00] But it's queer, Canon at this point. And
AE: [00:55:03] it, and, and it's, it's so many people's lives. Yeah.
CA: [00:55:06] Yeah. I, I
AE: [00:55:08] think that people don't like that they have to be closeted also people at the time, or like, why can't we just have movies about queer characters? Why does it have to be about like coming
CA: [00:55:18] out well, and that's still a conversation like.
And I think it's because Hollywood is still in the coming out phase of accepting queerness. Sure. Like we were all there when coming out was the biggest thing about you and it became a personality trait for a long time and then suddenly you're out and you can have a more nuanced perspective on life.
And it's not just about you coming out anymore. Like it's about love and first love or long lasting love or other things that have nothing to do with your queerness at all. Other than you are a queer person doing them. And that's just not where Hollywood is at this moment. They also can't give a queer person a happy ending to save their lives.
AE: [00:55:58] So, yeah. What's that movie happy and the perfect, perfect. And
CA: [00:56:03] then the perfect ending. Oh my God. Talk about, so one of the reasons that we wanted to do cult classic cult following movies is because I love B rated poorly made lesbian movies, so good. And the perfect ending. It's a great example of that.
AE: [00:56:20] It isn't so, so tragic or
CA: [00:56:22] alert.
No happy and perfect. No, I'm sure it's still on Netflix. I haven't gotten DVD, so I have no idea.
AE: [00:56:30] I think it's still on. Netflix could be,
CA: [00:56:32] I can think of like two movies that have really happy endings. They're getting a little bit better. Like a. I saw a really great, well, why are we still, oh, get back to your topic.
I think covering some of the movies I'm about to bring out to you.
AE: [00:56:46] Not, I'm not specifically, we're going to transition to television.
CA: [00:56:51] Oh, okay.
AE: [00:56:53] So in her article, gay activists. And the networks from 1981, Catherine Montgomery talks about the process involved at the time and creating a made for television movie that featured a gay character in a prominent role.
Since the main objective of the movie was to reach as wide an audience as possible various compromises were necessary. The story had to be told within the constraints of a popular television Shaundra, the crime drama, the narrative had to focus on the heterosexual lead character and the interactions with gay characters.
So they couldn't be the main, the main deal. The movie could not depict any scenes of affection between characters of the same sex. What year was this? 1981.
CA: [00:57:41] Uh, not surprising.
AE: [00:57:43] Montgomery concludes that quote, these requirements served as a filter through which the issue of homosexuality was processed, resulting in a televised picture of gay life, designed to be acceptable to the gay community and still to the mass audience,
CA: [00:58:00] because that's, what's important is the male gaze and the mass
AE: [00:58:03] audience.
Let's not make homophobic people uncomfortable.
CA: [00:58:07] I would hate for anyone to feel uncomfortable when being presented with love and joy and humanity
AE: [00:58:16] in recent years, there's been more improvement in the representation of queer people on mainstream network television. The popularity of shows such as will and grace.
Love it and queer eye for the straight guy, which is now queer eye
CA: [00:58:31] to demonstrate
AE: [00:58:31] too, right? Well, yeah. Yes. We're actually going to go to it right now. Right. Demonstrates that networks are willing to feature queer characters as long as the show draws, high ratings and a generates profit for advertisers.
The profit motivation means that networks are careful in their portrayals of queer character characters. So like we said earlier, will and grace currently in, um, syndication features to openly gay male characters. There is little to no discussion about gay relationships or romance. The two gay characters are friends, not lovers, and they are rarely shown in romantic situations.
The primary relationship for the both gay men is with their heterosexual female character
CA: [00:59:14] because they still gotta be straight in some capacity.
AE: [00:59:16] Right? Justin, Suears and Kurt Hummel from ugly, Betty and Glee, both characters are rather positively portrayals of gay teenagers who are solidly supporting by their parents.
Yeah, huge support from their parents. They are both casts has oddities, like without being freaks and they are portrayed as having loving, supportive networks.
CA: [00:59:39] Yeah. I really so glee. I, I loved glee. I watched it as it was coming out.
AE: [00:59:46] Oh, let's see. I only got to watch it in reruns, which I, I feel like that anticipation.
Yeah, it is for, it was so
CA: [00:59:55] needed. Well and Santana. So I started watching it. I guess at the near the end of the time it was airing. So I was like catching up while I was watching some episodes that were still coming out. But Santana comes out on the show and is not super accepted by her family. And I thought it was a great, they did a really great job of comparing that with Kurt situation where he was so supported by his dad, even if his stepbrother was less supportive.
So looking at the intergenerational no issues. And then of course, you know, they figure it out and they're fine. Right. But I loved all the queer representation now, glee, wasn't a perfect show. And like, looking back, there were a few songs that were a little, you know, whatever, but I loved the queer representation.
AE: [01:00:44] Yeah. Some of it is cringy. Like I'm pretty sure they sat in gold Digger. right. Well, and then
CA: [01:00:51] there was the whole thing puck and the teacher and singing I'm hot for teacher. Hmm, who was Idina Menzel, who was Elphaba and glee, right. Elphaba on Broadway.
AE: [01:01:01] Right. Who was also, um, Rachel's mom. Yeah. In real life.
Yeah. It's a whole web. What a tangled web
CA: [01:01:09] who also adopted puck's daughter now we're really going down the, and that was,
AE: [01:01:14] uh, Mr. Fins. Uh ex-wife okay. So the relationship, so between like the straight women and the gay men is also something that we need to talk about. That kind of became a thing in, uh, shows like, uh, not even just will and grace, but also like my best friends
CA: [01:01:32] wedding.
Well, the gay best friend trope, the gay best friend trope thing that people talk about outside of media. And it's just so common these days, like every straight girl wants to gay best friend, best friend. You do have a gay best friend, best friends,
AE: [01:01:49] male and female, and non-binary,
CA: [01:01:52] and non-binary my circle feels so small these days in terms of queer people, a circle is a circle.
AE: [01:01:59] It never ends. So while some critics have suggested that this trend of like the best friend thing represents an attempt to include gay and lesbian characters, others feel that such portrayals still marginalized those communities, which I have to agree with. Yeah. You know, you want it, but you want it for the right reasons.
Right? You don't want that character to just be for Hugh, you know, humor or for a laugh. Like you need your characters to have substance. They need character development.
CA: [01:02:31] Yeah. Speaking of character development, I'm assuming that there's a show that you're saving to the very end, because we're going to actually talk about it.
That lacks character development for most of the characters. And it's very gay. We're not making it through this whole episode without talking about the L word. Right.
AE: [01:02:46] That's exactly what I say for last, but we are going to come back to glee real quick, cause I'm not done perfectly. So in 2011, they had an episode that was called sexy.
So two gay male characters perform a song and dance routine before an auditorium filled of screaming girls, basically, um, one of them hands their phone number to one of the boys. At the end and while the male character does reaffirm, um, you know, that he is gay and declines the telephone number, it does seem strange that gay boys in an all boys school still need to perform in front of straight women in order to legitimize.
The display of their sexual selves. Right. Which is absolutely
CA: [01:03:34] true. It is true. And I think it's something that women experience really frequently is this, uh, concept of the male gaze, especially the straight CIS male gaze, where we do things specifically, because we've been taught that we need to seek the approval or seek the seek out, you know, this, the affirmation affirmation.
Yeah. Cause we're not valid without it, which is so untrue. But I feel like that's a similar concept. Like gay people can't exist and just be gay and without having. Great people process it because the show is not inherently for queer people. It's for straight people. Right? So if the audience of straight people is affirming of this gay, these two gay people, then you should be too, I guess, but also they can just exist.
Sure. And they should just be exist.
AE: [01:04:30] You know, it's interesting. They don't have the sexy dance and I'm sure, you know, it, it goes along with the theme. Right. But performing in front of a large crowd automatically validates you regardless of the gender or orientation of the people in the crowd. It's just like that noise and the affirmation.
However, this specifically was like their sexy week, right? Every week. Has a theme,
CA: [01:04:54] right.
AE: [01:04:55] And it is to be, or not
CA: [01:04:57] to be, or Brittany S
AE: [01:04:58] Pierce or Bernie Sanders. Yes. Okay. So as fascinating as this all is, I do want to make it clear that in my research, it was very readily accessible to get information about, uh, gay and lesbian, even bisexual representation in media.
However, it was a very different story about getting representation of trans folks in media, which I think is still true today. Unfortunately. So I looked up an article from the journal of human behavior, and this is a quote from that article. Okay. And this is from a person. This is a personal quote quote.
I think transphobia is a much bigger problem in mainstream media. Or any media than homophobia. I think most people say regardless of how they actual feel about LGBTQ people, that they would probably say that homophobia is not acceptable, or at least we should be open about it, but other people are very open about being transphobic and it's terrible.
And that was from Emma, who was a cis-gender young woman, who's queer slash bisexual 22 years old. Wow. And I think she's
CA: [01:06:10] absolutely right. Absolutely. I feel like there's this whole exclusionary thing that happens within the queer community where we're like, no, we need to fight for LGBT or LGB rights. And.
You know, push trans people to the end of the line or not include them at all. And it happens so frequently in media. It happens even with news stories that we consume. It's really troublesome.
AE: [01:06:37] It is. It really is. And I do, I do agree with, with Emma's statement. And of course I think that we would agree that we, that it is the queer community's responsibility to fight for our trans brothers, sisters, siblings alike.
For more representation in the media and more, you know, accurate representation in
CA: [01:06:59] the media. Well, I can, yeah. I only really think of like two movies that have any trans representation. So what are those two movies? Okay. So the two movies that have trans representation that I could think of initially were Transamerica and Boys Don't Cry.
AE: [01:07:17] Yes, absolutely. There's
CA: [01:07:19] also a TV show. Transparent. There have been a lot of really great documentaries and docu series. Out more recently, but those were like the two big ones that popped into my head.
AE: [01:07:30] Well, what's interesting about those examples, which I think we touched on a couple episodes ago was that those trans representations are from CIS actors, which is something that we have to fix.
And I know we appreciate those stories. However, you know, we need more representation.
CA: [01:07:49] Speaking of which, can we talk for just a moment about Elliot page still staying in the umbrella academy? Yes. And so the umbrella academy or whoever the director is put out a statement when someone asked if Elliot page was going to continue playing the role of whatever the character's name is.
I forget right now and the director, or somebody said a trans person has been playing this character all along. Why would we change it now? Fuck. Yes. That's the correct answer is okay to have trans individuals portraying straight people. And it is not okay for straight people to always be portraying trans people.
AE: [01:08:28] Absolutely. Thank you for bringing that up.
CA: [01:08:30] Orange is the new black, that's another one that has a good trans representation and that's the one
AE: [01:08:34] that I had on my list. And I think that was done really well. And like granted, the writing kind of, for me personally, kind of went off the end a little bit. Yeah. As the seasons progressed,
CA: [01:08:46] but the first few seasons were definitely
AE: [01:08:48] so good.
The writing was good. Courtney, Courtney Cox, Laverne Cox, Laverne
CA: [01:08:53] Cox liberal access.
AE: [01:08:54] So fantastic. Yeah, really. She did a really, really excellent job.
CA: [01:09:00] I love that they brought her twin brother and rather than asking her to make any accommodations. Sure.
AE: [01:09:06] Roughly her, yeah.
CA: [01:09:08] Her pretransition self. Thank you.
AE: [01:09:10] Absolutely.
And I think to close this out, you know, we can't, we can't do a pride episode without talking about the L word.
CA: [01:09:19] We talk about the L word so much
AE: [01:09:22] and, and you know, one of the first things I want to talk about, you know, is the misrepresentation of trans folks on the original season of the L word. It's horrible.
It's not, it is, it is not great, but that there are some aspects of the show that are, I think we're good for people time.
CA: [01:09:44] Yeah. We first watched the L word, not as, not together, but. No in our lives about the same time, I think.
AE: [01:09:51] Well, and I do. So I used to have this ritual with one of my oldest friends in the whole entire world.
And whenever I would go home to Charlotte, we would go to, they still have a, um, they still have a video store it's called visit art and we would go rent L word DVDs, nice. And get through like three episodes a weekend or whenever, you know, whenever I was staying. And so I saw the L word over. Years. Yeah.
20 years to see the whole thing.
CA: [01:10:26] Yeah. I, there was a old streaming site. There was like specifically for queer media and I don't remember what it was called right now. And it certainly like put multiple viruses on my computer. However, that's how I first saw the L word. And then I started collecting the DVDs from, uh, what's the place in the mall.
Oh
AE: [01:10:47] my God. Yeah. So I do also get the picture of the two women kissing each other in the white. Do you remember that post
CA: [01:10:56] I'm talking about, I dated someone with that poster? No. Yes.
AE: [01:11:00] For sure. That was like the own, I mean, that was like in a Spencer's. Oh yeah. FYE near you. I'm sure you know exactly what I'm talking
CA: [01:11:09] about.
I do. You don't even have to discuss afterwards. I'll let you guess which ex had it because you will not be surprised. No, I already know. I figured you would, but yeah, so you're right. We can't end the show without talking about the L word, because the L word is still such an iconic piece of queer, Canon and queer history at this moment.
Like when you go on a date or you're hanging out with your friends, we still talk about who's Dana and who's Alice, like who killed Jenny Schecter? Like these are questions that someone asked me recently. I just think it's so interesting because it's something that we all know and we all reference. And a lot of queer media, I think, is building these connections in a subtle way so that if I'm in public and I want to find out that someone's queer, I could make an L word reference and see if someone picks up on it, which I think is similar to what gay men have done with the wizard of Oz.
And I love Lucy, which is not when you mentioned earlier, but I know a lot of gay men who really like clung onto, I love Lucy as queer culture. Yeah. And throwing out a little reference just to see who around you picks up on it. It's important.
AE: [01:12:25] Oh yeah. Why it's important in finding out, you know, it's a safety thing too.
Yeah. Yeah. Who's in your circle. Who knows what's up. Well,
CA: [01:12:34] and I love that the queer community is more than just a group of people who all have one thing in common. It really is a culture with its own art and music and media. That whether to an earlier point you made, whether it is specifically for the queer community or something that was made for straight people that the queer community has embraced.
Right. It's still part of queer culture. Sure. So, okay.
AE: [01:13:04] I mean, Katie Perry really, like, I struggle with her. Like I kissed a girl and I liked it. Yeah. Don't love it. Loved it at the time. Oh, I was here for it at the time time. I mean, but she's still very much like a gay, a queer icon. Yeah. Same thing with Cher.
We haven't talked about Cher, how could we
CA: [01:13:23] not Cher? Yeah.
AE: [01:13:27] And also of course, I didn't want to exclusively talk about Ellen DeGeneres, but she is 100%, you know, really important to note. Um, she struggled with like finding representation in media and then, you know, was given a huge opportunity to have her talk show and she's even stumbled over a couple of hiccups over the years.
CA: [01:13:50] Yeah. She's apparently, uh, just kind of a shitty person. Is she? Yeah. People are really not happy with Ellen right now. Um, we'll have to talk more. That might be longer than the hour and a half. We have already been talking for this episode. People just really don't love Ellen right
AE: [01:14:07] now. Well, hold on. Just.
Real quick. So, um, I think it's so important. We talk about her, but like, what is, is it like within the queer
CA: [01:14:14] community? Yeah. People are real pissed at Ellen what'd she do. Okay. But yeah, so apparently the thing with Ellen is that she is just not like the kind person that she portrays herself as being, which is her whole brand is shown to be kind.
But apparently she's pretty mean actually.
AE: [01:14:31] Well, sure. She might be mean she might be mean she might she might be mean what I want to just, I just want to, from, from a media perspective about, you know, LGBT in the community, in the media. So she was the first woman that Johnny Carson on the Johnny Carson show had come sit on his couch was, which was like, really, I didn't know that it was a really, really big deal.
And so, you know, she did come out later in life, but she did have a really tragic end to her relationships. She had a partner that passed away in a car accident. Yeah. She was basically, you know, given a, a TV show, she chose to come out in that TV show and was taken off
CA: [01:15:14] air the very first episode, she came out like there's a coming out joke.
I own it on DVD. You do. I do. Maybe that's some of the queer media we can consume. I know that we're not super loving Ellen these days, but it's an iconic piece of queer history. Is her coming out of the closet literally on TV? Yeah,
AE: [01:15:32] absolutely. I mean, I think, you know, I think that is important to note because I know that it did a lot to, for a lot of people in that moment that might've been the first time that they saw representation.
CA: [01:15:44] Yeah. I want to jump back to the L word really quickly. So you and I love the L word, even though it's. Not aged well, to say the least, and
AE: [01:15:55] they do have a new season. They have series, they have a new reboot, the generation gen
CA: [01:16:01] Q super cute. I heard. And I haven't Googled this to make sure it's true. So we should probably do that before we say this, but Tina is coming back and guess who she's dating?
It's a woman queer woman that we love. Well, Tina, we know Tina's yes, but who's Tina dating queer woman that we love of queer woman that we love. We are woman that we love.
AE: [01:16:26] We are women that we love.
CA: [01:16:28] Give you a hint. I referenced her on either our first or second episode as having a Tik TOK, Rosie O'Donnell.
I
AE: [01:16:38] know Donald's coming back to acting.
CA: [01:16:41] Yeah, apparently we're also going to have to hell a fact, check this because I do not want to be around folks, but if this doesn't happen, it is my wow.
AE: [01:16:52] Yeah. Harriet, the spy coming at ya. Golly. Crazy. I really look forward to, but you know, I do want to just close this out by saying, you know, we have so much.
Farther to go, but we have also come a long way and I hope that we can all just spend the month of June reflecting, celebrating, celebrating. Good, good Godness, good goddess. And I am so happy that we were able to do a pride specific episode. Me too.
CA: [01:17:22] This has been so much fun. Maybe we need to change our whole branding and just coordinate every time and only talk about gay shit.
AE: [01:17:30] We're changing our concept,
CA: [01:17:31] new podcast, comming at ya. Yeah, no, I loved this and I loved having this conversation and now I have this whole list in my brain of all the things I want to go watch and read music. I want to listen to June is about to be gay a F a F live into that alphabet mafia life.
AE: [01:17:50] Absolutely. And as far as an intersection this week, obviously I didn't not cover queer adoption in general. And, but my topic perhaps may intersect into yours, but just generally celebrating, you know, the LGBTQ plus community. Well, and yes.
CA: [01:18:08] Okay. And I think that there's a really strong intersection with the TV show, the fosters, which have you seen the fosters?
I've seen it. Yeah. So the fosters is phenomenal. It was written by J-Lo written and directed maybe by J-Lo, but it's it. Yeah, it's an interracial lesbian couple who has one biological son, two adopted children, um, and then takes in two foster kids. And it's just phenomenal representation. I'm a big fan of the show.
And I think that that might be our intersection is it's queer media. It's also queer adoption. They talk about queer issues, issues with in foster care issues with adoption and identity, all the things that you could ask for in queer media. They also have positive, healthy relationship. Oh, very true. Yeah.
Which we just don't get enough of and in queer media. So. Excellent job. Thank you for reminding me of all the things I love about the queer community and queer culture.
AE: [01:19:04] Absolutely. I love it. Celebrate yourself. Celebrate your family, your neighbors. Let's all find out what connects us all. If you support us blink twice, and
CA: [01:19:14] if you're out there, keep listening.
AE: [01:19:17] Thank you for listening to podcast without an audience. Find us on social media at podwithoutanaud. If you can find us on Instagram or Facebook or find us on the web podcastswithoutanaudience.com. Shoot us an email podwithoutanaud@gmail.com. Our cover art is created by an actual angel Ashlie Acevedo.
Our music is by Zach Smith and Ted Oliver editing by Jacob Beeson.
CA: [01:19:43] We hope you enjoyed today's episode and all of our nerdy content, please consider leaving us a five-star review on apple podcast or wherever you listen to us today. Oh, and checking out our Patrion for exclusive content and our pasta recipes again.
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